New Tips On Hornady Bullets

[Curmudgeon]

Hornady tells the story of their polymer tips failing at high speed. Is this why the unexplained flyer takes place? The new tip solves this problem, maybe. Is there a recall on the old tips because of unexplained failure? What is Hornady telling us about the new tip they are using? Can we depend on the "old" Hornady tips or are they history. What's the story?

 

[sbhooper]

Looks to me like they are admitting that their polymer tips are crap. Don't expect a billion-bullet recall, but it sounds crappy to me.

I'll stay with mostly lead.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The "failures" required some combination of long range, high muzzle velocity, and high ambient temperatures.

The "failures" also were not unique to Hornady, but can occur with any plastic tipped bullet, other than these Hornady's new ones.

To be fair, any demand for recalls needs to include Nosler, Barnes, Sierra, and all the other plastic tipped bullets also.

Bullets all have limitations. A new one has been discovered. Over the next couple years, I expect all the makers of plastic tipped bullets will follow Hornady's lead and offer solutions.

I've used Hornady bullets for years and only noticed a problem a couple of times on the hottest days of summer.

 

[joshb]

So THAT's why my groups were so big!! Glad I'm sitting on 4k of hollow points

 

[K22]

Strange indeed. I've used Nosler BT's and Hornady Vmax's in the 223 for many, many years in the 90+ weather on the range and hunting ghogs and never experienced so called "failures". Distances were limited to under 300 yards and velocities were in the 3100 to 3200 ft/sec range.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Strange indeed. I've used Nosler BT's and Hornady Vmax's in the 223 for many, many years in the 90+ weather on the range and hunting ghogs and never experienced so called "failures". Distances were limited to under 300 yards and velocities were in the 3100 to 3200 ft/sec range.

The most noticable symptom of soft tips is lower BC than exected. We have known for years that Nosler BTs don't have anywhere near the listed BCs. It seemed odd over the years that there seemed to be more drop in summer than in winter. Now we know why. But one needs to be at long range or be using sensitive equipment to see these subtle differences.

Have you read the Hornady white paper written by Dave Emary? Doppler radar on Nosler Accubond LRs and Barnes XLRs gives convincing results.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/resources/ELD-X_ELD-Match_Technical_Details.pdf

 

[CJ6]

Now wouldn't it be great if Remington came back with a full line of "bronze points"..... Their 130 BP in 270 and 150 in 308 were some of the better bullets I've ever used for deer an such.

 

[waldo1979]

Never had issues with 55gr zombies but 75gr A-max always gave me trouble. I chalked it up to temperamental seating depths but melting makes sense.

 

[amlevin]

Bullets all have limitations. A new one has been discovered. Over the next couple years, I expect all the makers of plastic tipped bullets will follow Hornady's lead and offer solutions.

Is Hornady "leading" or merely "following"? I have been using the Sierra TMK's recently and when comparing them to the A-Max's I have on hand the Sierra tips seem to be a lot harder and possibly more temperature resistant.

 

[SierraCJ5]

I've observed substantial deviation from calculated trajectory at 1780 yards with the 285g a-max when fired from a 338 Lapua. Conversely, the 300g Berger OTM exhibited trajectories very close to those predicted at identical range.

It will be very interesting to test the new ELD to see if it eliminates this discrepancy.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Bullets all have limitations. A new one has been discovered. Over the next couple years, I expect all the makers of plastic tipped bullets will follow Hornady's lead and offer solutions.

Is Hornady "leading" or merely "following"? I have been using the Sierra TMK's recently and when comparing them to the A-Max's I have on hand the Sierra tips seem to be a lot harder and possibly more temperature resistant.

Maybe.

Plastic hardness at room temperature is not related to melting point or deflection temperature.

Dave Emary's report showed that Nosler and Barnes bullets also have the problem with flattening tips increasing drag, but I'm not sure whether Sierra bullets were tested.

While it is possible that Sierra is using a heat resistant plastic in their TMKs, I'm not sure I'd call it leadership that Hornady is following if Sierra kept both knowledge of the tip softening problem and how they fixed it private. Identifying and addressing a problem is leadership if made public, but not if kept private.

I wish Sierra would clarify whether the tips in their TMKs are heat resistant.

 

[5spd]

Will there be a class action lawsuit & TV commercial saying to call us & collect mula for said failure of plastic tips and bullet flyers causing us discontent???....hahahah

 

[jlow]

Bullets all have limitations. A new one has been discovered. Over the next couple years, I expect all the makers of plastic tipped bullets will follow Hornady's lead and offer solutions.

Is Hornady "leading" or merely "following"? I have been using the Sierra TMK's recently and when comparing them to the A-Max's I have on hand the Sierra tips seem to be a lot harder and possibly more temperature resistant.

Maybe.

Plastic hardness at room temperature is not related to melting point or deflection temperature.

Dave Emary's report showed that Nosler and Barnes bullets also have the problem with flattening tips increasing drag, but I'm not sure whether Sierra bullets were tested.

While it is possible that Sierra is using a heat resistant plastic in their TMKs, I'm not sure I'd call it leadership that Hornady is following if Sierra kept both knowledge of the tip softening problem and how they fixed it private. Identifying and addressing a problem is leadership if made public, but not if kept private.

I wish Sierra would clarify whether the tips in their TMKs are heat resistant.

I would not be too quick to give Hornady credit yet without knowing more. We basically only know when they disclosed the problem but don’t know when they discovered this problem.

Also the timing is a bit suspect since they now have competition with the Sierra TMKs. Are they disclosing because they just found out? Are they disclosing to do a one upmanship on Sierra with a better bullet assuming Sierra’s is not melt-resistant? Or were they force to change their bullets because Sierra’s is met-resistant?

I would say that we don’t know now but we will have a better idea when we find out if the TMKs are melt resistant.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Also the timing is a bit suspect since they now have competition with the Sierra TMKs. Are they disclosing because they just found out? Are they disclosing to do a one upmanship on Sierra with a better bullet assuming Sierra’s is not melt-resistant? Or were they force to change their bullets because Sierra’s is met-resistant?

I would say that we don’t know now but we will have a better idea when we find out if the TMKs are melt resistant.

Good questions. I don't think the acetyl resins Sierra is using in their plastic tips are any more heat resistant than the plastics Nosler, Barnes, and Hornady have been using for years.

Also, you can see on the attached graph of Sierra BCs that the initial BC advantage enjoyed by the TMK bullet decreases greatly in flight. When it leaves the muzzle, the 175 TMK has a big BC advantage over the 175 SMK. But the BC advantage has mostly evaporated by the time the velocity has decayed to 1800 ft/s. This is consistent with the suggestion that TMK tips are being deformed in flight.

I have noticed that all of the TMKs lose more BC as velocity decays than their SMK counterparts. Melting tips seem like the most plausible explanation.

 

[Changeling]

I'll just wait till they send me a letter explaining their bullet tip problems and giving me the NEW box code for the corrected situation so I don't buy any more of the effected/defective bullets ;D

How long do you think I'll have to wait.............I couldn't quite hear you........ till what freezes over :

 

[Park ranger]

Isn't this only happening at very high velocity. More than a 308 gets. I don't even buy it...

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Isn't this only happening at very high velocity. More than a 308 gets. I don't even buy it...

If you look at Figs 6 and 7 of Dave Emary's paper, you will see the effect is documented for muzzle velocities of Mach 2.5 with the 175 grain Nosler Accubond LR. Most F-Class shooters are reaching that velocity.

See: http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/resources/ELD-X_ELD-Match_Technical_Details.pdf

Also consider Michael Eichele's post over at Long Range Hunting. I have attached his picture of a recovered 178 AMAX launched at 2550 ft/s and recovered at 650 yards. Looks like melting to me.

See:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/hornady-eld-x-official-thread-161172/index12.html

 

[jlow]

Agreed! Those are not crazy speeds and for a fact the 140 A-MAX used for 6.5 reloads generally go significantly faster.

That photo is also what I would call as direct evidence and so a good find.

 

[StevenDzupin]

Bryan Litz, What say you ?

Regards,

Steve

 

[amlevin]

[ I don't think the acetyl resins Sierra is using in their plastic tips are any more heat resistant than the plastics Nosler, Barnes, and Hornady have been using for years.

.

Would depend on whether Sierra is using a homopolymer with the others using a copolymer form of the acetyl resin.

The homopolymer has a melting point of 178 C versus the copolymer melt point of 167 C.

Maybe Hornady is switching? Since nobody is really 'talking' one can only guess.