New rifle, bizarre problem.

[jhord]

I have a new Savage .223 VLP in 7 twist. I mounted up a known good Hawke Frontier 6x24 scope using an EGW 0 MOA rail and medium Ironsighter rings. Everything there seems aligned just fine. I boresight and level the scope on my rifles by setting up my rest and rear bag on a concrete floor, and sight out to a target 50 yards away with a bright orange paster on it. I draw lines on the target so that I can achieve "level level" between the rifle and reticle using bubble levels and so forth. When I boresight, I look down the barrel and get the rifle aligned such that I see 3 concentric circles, the paster, the end of the barrel, and the chamber end of the barrel, to eliminate parallax. Then I dial the scope to the paster and head to my 100 yard range. I was confident that the scope/rings/base were all in pretty good alignment because when I boresighted, the turrets were very close to their 0 settings on both elevation and windage. Using this method I'm always on paper and usually within 4" or less of point of aim on the first shot. Well this time was very different.

I set up @100 yards and get ready to shoot a few 53g Sierra HPFB loads. Not what I plan to shoot in the rifle, but good enough to sight in. First shot, and I see nothing on the target. (18"x24") I hold high on the 2nd shot, nothing. I hold low on the 3rd shot, nothing. At this point I start to wonder if the bullets are blowing up, so I switch to some 60g Vmax loads. Nothing. I recheck the boresighting, and all looks fine. I move the target to 50 yards and try some more. Nothing. Exasperated, I move the target to 25 yards, recheck the boresighting yet again, and fire off another shot. Dirt flies in front of the target! Well at least now I know where the bullet is going. I set the rifle to point of aim, and adjust the scope to point of impact. Uhh... it takes over 20 MOA of elevation to get there. In fact, I run out of clicks. Knowing at this point that I'd at least be on paper, I take another shot. About 4" lower than POA, but finally on paper. Now here is the really weird part. I align the xhairs to the POA, and sight thru the barrel to see where it is pointing. It's pointing way above the target... can't even see it! At this point I'm dumbfounded. Here are the facts as I know them:

1) The scope rail, bases, scope, and action screws are all tight and properly aligned.
2) I boresighted at least 10 times. I know for a fact that the barrel and xhairs are pointing to the same general place, plain as day. (before I started adjusting)
3) At 100 yards, the point of impact is around 2' low and slightly right of where the barrel is pointing when I look thru it.

I'm baffled. All I can think of is there's a barrel problem of some sort, but it looks straight and the crown appears fine. I can't imagine a scenario where the POI is that far off even "eyeballing" it. Ideas?

 

[rayjay]

The bore probably has a pronounced curve to it . I have seen the problem a lot when visually boresighting a factory rifle. I usually can get a top quality aftermarket bbl within about 4" just by looking down the bore and often I can do this with a factory bbl. But sometimes I get a factory bbl that is not even on the paper.

 

[fdshuster]

Sounds to me like just what rayjay said, a bent barrel. I use the identical method to sight-in a newly mounted scope as you, and within 3 or 4 shots (first 2 at 50 yd), I'm on the paper at 100. The barrel could be bent and it would never show up when boresighting/ looking down the bore & lining up with the aiming point. I'd contact Savage and dump the problem in their lap.

 

[jhord]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. I'm glad that I may not be insane, because that's how I felt when I was trying to sight this thing in. @TR, no, these are the regular Ironsighter scope rings, medium height. After I typed the above last night, I went out to my shop and took everything apart. I reinstalled the base, rings and scope, then went outside and boresighted to a security light approx. 100 yards away. I ended up with the exact same settings as when I started, the xhairs lined right up with the turrets near zero. So I'm pretty confident I've done my part ok. This AM I laid a straight edge on the barrel and it is for the most part straight, at least on the exterior. Maybe a few thou daylight here and there, but nothing pronounced. Is there any way I can check the bore itself for straightness? If I have to send it back to Savage I guess that's what I'll have to do, but I was hoping to use this thing in a factory class benchrest match this weekend. :-[ Don't they supposedly test these things at the factory???

I just finished up a 6BR build about 2 weeks ago, boresighted it using my method above, fired one sighter @ 100, adjusted the scope, and then put the next 4 shots into a .250" group right in the 10 ring. So although I could be doing something idiotic with this one... I have my doubts.

 

[fdshuster]

jhord: I thought about suggesting that the barrel be removed, and checking the straightness on a lathe, but then realized that if you needed to return it to Savge under warranty, they might give you some static, so if there's any chance it might have to go back, I'd leave it "as is". Chances seem real good that they created the problem, let them solve it. I had a factory takeoff barrel, light sporter contour that was destined for the scrap bin anyway and a friend of mine checked it for straightness in his lathe. I don't remember the numbers, but it was so crooked that when slowly rotated you could watch the muzzle jump up and down.

 

[BoydAllen]

Curved barrel...had the same problem once, with a factory barrel. Send it back.

 

[JRinCo]

I ran into this once. It's not that the exterior of the barrel is crooked, the bore is where the problem is. My gunsmith set it up in a lathe and spun it. The exterior looked fine but looking through the bore, it reminded me of a car with a flat tire.

 

[jonbearman]

Guess what,you all could very well be wrong as I am having the exact same problem and about to call egw.I have bought 2 egw bases fairly recently,a 20 moa and 0 moa. Both have the same problem as the writer. I run out of scope adjustment like it is a 40 moa base.I have a cutom savage in 22-250 ai. I boresighted it with a shooter who is way out of my league.We have both had the same problem. Couldnt get the thing on paper without running out of scope adjustment.My barrel is not bent.It is a shilen select match barrel. On the lathe it indicated almost perfact.It shoots bug holes. The only problem is the egw bases I have used. There is some problem with it in the axial plane like it is twisted.When I bore sight the exact same thing happens. I am going to call egw today and see waht they say.All the bases came from midway in the last 3 months. I will keep you updated. I dont think he has a bent barrel at all. I am in no way trying to say that you are not right,just that it seems particularly odd thatwe both have the same prblem.Using known good optics.

 

[fivering]

All bore sighting does is help you get on paper initially.
No one with any G2 uses it for any thing more.
If when you finally get on paper the rifle groups well, be happy, don't waste time and energy worrying about things that don't matter.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

My thoughts are scope mounts as well.. I'd remove all the mounting hardware and check it out. I'd also try a different scope just to rule that out..

 

[jhord]

@jonbearman- Well, I did buy my base from Midway about a week ago. One of my first thoughts was, "maybe I got a 20MOA by mistake." Because I did have to dial in about 20MOA to get the bullet on paper. But it appears to be a 0. I can flip it around either way and it does not appear to make any difference. Also, if I look thru the barrel and see a 1" paster centered, and at the same time the crosshairs are centered on the paster, you would think it would shoot let's say no more than 6" away from where it is boresighted? I'm not arguing, just trying to logically think this out. Is there enough parallax error sighting thru a bore, to be 24" or more off at 100 yards? Perhaps so, but I've never had it happen.

@fivering- I don't disagree, but this isn't a case of something being a bit off. Something is WAY off. If I have to bury the elevation turret on my scope to get the bullet on target something is amiss. And, this scope was just on a .223 BVSS and it shot on target @ 100 yards with the turrets on their zeros for the most part. Something is whacked out.

 

[jonbearman]

Just called EGW and they are having someone get back to me this afternoon.

 

[jonbearman]

You know come to think about it I had my tactical burris on my benchgun and it didnt have any problem sighting it in either.When parts are out on the axial plane,you wont get the turrets to ever act right.It is almost like laying the scope really off center and trying to sight in. If you move the elevation turret it may move up or down and off to the left or right at the same time.

 

[jonbearman]

How many moa is the scope overall,say 60 moa or whatever.I went to the hawke sight and most are 60moa overall.Please post this.

 

[jhord]

60 claimed but mine's more like 54 total. I have checked and the turrets are zeroed each way. I have another in 8x32 on my 6BR and FWIW, I think they're great scopes.

I guess I'll have to search around locally for a different scope base, just to see if that helps the situation. I have the Weaver 46M's and Ironsighter rings on my 6BR (Savage target action) and there was no drama whatsoever getting that rifle sighted in. I went with the EGW one piece on the VLP thinking it would stiffen up the receiver.

 

[jonbearman]

Finally got through to a guy on the floor and my measurements are not matching up with the print.I have to call tomorrow as they didnt get back to me yet.I will keep you all posted.

 

[jhord]

Hopefully tomorrow I can put a few more rounds thru it to see if my disassembly/reassembly changed anything. I checked out the scope base as best I could and it seems fine. If it still doesn't shoot into the right ZIP code, I'm going to chuck up the whole barreled action in a friend's lathe and have a look at the bore. My small lathe doesn't have a big enough spindle bore to handle it. I did the thing with the decapped cartridge and had a look at the concentric rings, but I can't tell much without being able to spin the barrel. It "maybe" looked funny but I wasn't sure.

 

[jhord]

I give up, it's going back to Savage for a new barrel. I flipped the whole scope base around the other way, made sure everything was aligned yet again, same result. It shoots more than 2' low at 100 yards, and at 25 yards will not hit paper with the bull staring at me right thru the barrel and the scope sighted to that bull. What a POS, lucky me!

 

[dmg264]

jhord I just had my brother send back his Stevens(same barrels as a Savage) for the same thing. If you can't pull the bolt and look through the bore and sight in fairly close then it's the barrel, not the mounts. I have used this method for many years and have never had any problem until this rifle. Ended up having to shim the scope base just to get it on the paper at 100 yards. You could look through the bore and the scope and see that the two were nowhere close to each other. I told him to take it back to the where he bought and they wanted to give him the run around. After we finally got it sighted in I had him take back to them and had them put their bore sighter in it and they couldn't believe that the zero was that far off and they decided to swap the rifle out.

 

[jhord]

If I am reading right dmg264, my problem is a bit different. I can sight thru the barrel and see Point A. Without moving the rifle, the scope is also aligned to Point A and zeroed. Problem is when taking a shot at Point A, the bullet gets chucked over 20 MOA low to Point B. I think it's more like 30 MOA off, actually. (or you're saying after sighting, the barrel and scope are way off... yeah that makes perfect sense)

I had to do some line drawings today so that I could get my head fully around this problem. If the barrel bore is curved, some of the light entering the end of the barrel can still make a straight shot to your eye and make it appear that the bore is aimed at what you see. But in fact the very end of the bore may be pointing off in some other direction. Also, the image may appear fuzzier than normal because some of the light is bouncing around inside the barrel and being distorted. This is in fact happening with mine now that I think about it, the target image is not that clear when looking thru the barrel, compared to other guns I have sighted in.

Experts, do I have that right?