New reloader

[Metalocalypse902]

Got a few questions as a new reloader.. I've seen some videos on YouTube from some great competition shooters. As well as digging through all the forums regarding powder charge and SD and ES.

Does ES matter if im only shooting out to 500-600 yards or should I ignore it?

Few people have told me you don't need a chronograph to get your es just shoot paper? Elaborate if possible?

I doubt I'd shoot out past 600 yards ever. This would be for a hunting application.

Shooting a rem700 tactical 18" 1:10 Twist. the load I'm looking to work on is the eldx 178grain. Varget powder.

Any and all other information/advice welcome. Thanks.

 

[nwmnbowhunter]

Shoot paper at distance..... perfect your technique, and then verify what you speed/sd/es are.

Usually accurate loads are pretty stable.

Chasing es/sd as a new reloader will cause gray hairs.... and too many questions.

 

[Krogen]

Go in light. I suggest you wait to buy a chrono until you get your feet wet, or wetter. Many of us - myself included - overbuy in the search of the wholly grail. I suggest you ignore velocity ES and SD for the time being. Load some rounds, shoot some paper and see what happens. Ask lots of questions. You'll get answers here, many of them helpful. Good luck and welcome to the obsession. You're off to a good start.

 

[RegionRat]

Got a few questions as a new reloader.. I've seen some videos on YouTube from some great competition shooters. As well as digging through all the forums regarding powder charge and SD and ES.

Does ES matter if im only shooting out to 500-600 yards or should I ignore it?

Few people have told me you don't need a chronograph to get your es just shoot paper? Elaborate if possible?

I doubt I'd shoot out past 600 yards ever. This would be for a hunting application.

Shooting a rem700 tactical 18" 1:10 Twist. the load I'm looking to work on is the eldx 178grain. Varget powder.

Any and all other information/advice welcome. Thanks.

Yes and no....

I would never tell you MV or ES/SD "don't matter". They certainly matter but the main point is the priority is on the target not the chrono stats.

If your recipe doesn't agree with your rifle or if you load sloppy then those stats are an indicator of a problem.

Poor ignition will also lead to sloppy ES/SD issues, so a chronograph can be used to monitor the health and cleaning needs of the rifle as well as help with external ballistics.

Now, within reason you can get away with a less than stellar ES/SD and still have a recipe perform well up to about 600 yards for a hunting application. Many folks learned to develop very good loads and shoot to very high performance levels before personal chronographs were proliferated.

As a rookie, you have to give yourself time to set your foundation and get some experience. As you build your skills and process, you will learn to smooth out your workflow. Your recipe may or may not be optimum, but basic skills can still get you to performance levels that are perfectly acceptable for hunting situations up to about 600 yards.

By definition, when you develop a load by letting the targets do the talking, the velocity stats will be "good enough". However the opposite is often not true in that really great velocity stats are not a guarantee the gun likes the recipe in terms of the target performance. There are no prizes given for chronograph stats, so keep the target prioritized.

When folks said you don't need a chronograph, they were not wrong because it is technically true, however....

Whenever you are still in the learning curve of internal and external ballistics, it is good to know the velocity as a proxy for the pressure and as an indicator of quality control, even if the ES/SD does/doesn't spoil the vertical performance at distance.

Just one more comment, Do not stare at the chronograph as the priority. Too many rookies fall into the trap of "The 10 Shot Satterlee Method" and think they can develop a load by looking at chrono stats or "flat spots". Those "flat spots" in velocity ladder tests do not exist.

Your priority as a rookie is the safety first, then performance on the target, then the chrono stats as time passes.

 

[misser]

as much as I like my chronograph and the info it gives me its the target that tells me if I am doing it right

 

[mgunderson]

Find a good reloading mentor near you. You will be able to use some of their equipment and make more educated decisions.

Welcome to the world of reloading.

 

[Doom]

Too many rookies fall into the trap of "The 10 Shot Satterlee Method" and think they can develop a load by looking at chrono stats or "flat spots". Those "flat spots" in velocity ladder tests do not exist.

Your priority as a rookie is the safety first, then performance on the target, then the chrono stats as time passes.

A note of clarification on the "flat spots" for the new reloader. They do sometimes exist in the data that is taken and it is due to random sampling effects, small increments of powder charge, and the normal variations that exist from shot to shot due to the various variables that can affect velocity. Given more data the flat spots disappear and they do not repeat.

 

[CJ6]

I suggest spending your crono money on a good scale instead.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

A 600 yard hunting shot takes a lot of practice (actual shooting) making wind calls(in different weather conditions) without flags. I guess if you were able to chrono every practice shot in every weather condition there maybe some value to the data(how the powder you selected tolerates temp/humidity change). Just seems like a lot of noise in an uncontrolled situation(hunting).

 

[TIMO]

Got a few questions as a new reloader.. I've seen some videos on YouTube from some great competition shooters. As well as digging through all the forums regarding powder charge and SD and ES.

Welome,
Just my .02. All great questions and answers from the members here.

Start slow, let your target tell you and test at several different ranges. Consistency in your loading will make a huge difference and will be evident on your target. One thing that I do (ever since starting in the 1980s) is to ask questions of fellow reloader and those that are familiar with the type of shooting that you are loading for. Keep in mind that every reloader/shooter has their own opinion or technique on what works or is best, you have to decide what and if or how you apply those things in your loading process. The more information you can add to your knowledge tool box is priceless regardless of the cartridge discipline you are loading for.

There is still plenty of time to buy chonographs and other things as they will be helpful in your loading as you progress.

Lastly,
Keep asking questions here, provide as much background info on your goal, process and equipment so the members here can assist.

Tim

 

[Metalocalypse902]

All great stuff here guys. I guess when I say new I mean I've only been at it a couple years. I'm just starting to think about a chronograph now.

My regular process has been to pick a seating depth to stay at. Usually as short of a jump as I can go but still fit in the mag. Then starting at a powder charge in a book. Usually I go .5 increments in powder charge, shoot 5 groups of 4 and choose my best grouping. Then I go up and down from that charge by .2 and see where I tighten up the most. After this I start messing with my seating depth until I get a consistently tight group. I've gotten 2 of my rifles at .5ish MOA in a 5 shot group. But I've been thinking about pushing out further for game because of some of the newer areas I'm hunting in.

I guess what I mean was im not sure I understand the SD. And for the ES I understand I want the lowest possible. But at let's say 600 yards or less. Should I even bother with it at all? I've also seen guys talk about doing it without a chronograph but I don't know what I'm not understanding in the process. I'm not super crazy about stuff. Everything i use is manual except my scale. I'm not very picky with brass. I clean and prep it. But I'll shoot any. Usually hornady brass. Cci primers.

I'm open to new methods and just expanding my knowledge as a whole and I'd really like a good understanding of SD and ES

 

[searcher]

Measuring es and sd can somewhat "complicate" the simplicity of running a few powder ladders with a particular bullet and choosing the one that looks best on paper. If you ever wanted to step things up and try to squeeze a "bit more" accuracy out of your rig - a chrono can help you. But you can also achieve the same thing without a chrono altogether. The chrono just tells you digitally what you already saw on paper (other than velocity), more or less. I just try to get a 1/2 MOA load from my hunting rifle and sometimes that equals using a load with es and sd that are not what I'd like to see, but within the distance I'll be shooting, it was the load that actually provided the smallest groups. While I used to take longer shots at game, these days, I'd likely not shoot at big game past 400 yards +/-. If I thought more of the shots would be beyond that, I'd be just a bit more interested in the ES and sd. For shots under 400 or so, I'd not even give it too much thought. On my smaller-caliber varmint rifles and target rifles, I want much smaller groups (smaller targets) and tend to pay more attention to those numbers.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I can tell you this, the Internet is filled a bunch of BS about ES...

I absolutely recommend you get a chrono. Not for ES\SD but to give you more information while looking for pressure signs. If you are under book max but seeing pressure and your velocity is really high compared to the book, that is a good sign that you are not crazy and infact the pressure is getting spicy. It can go the other way too.

If you know the actual velocity it will help you put good data in a solver too.

 

[searcher]

Curious. What cartridge are you shooting?

 

[Metalocalypse902]

Curious. What cartridge are you shooting?

I'm shooting 178gr eldx 308

 

[searcher]

One great thing about the chrono and knowing what your sd and es numbers are, is that if they are terrible numbers, you can take the spread and calculate how much vertical dispersion you will have at a given distance. If your load calculated out to 3" at 600 yards, you might opt to do absolutely nothing if you are getting a nice group and shooting at big game. Then again, since you are wanting to "step it up" a bit, you can play with your powder settings, seating depth, primers selection, neck tension, etc. to see if you can improve these numbers - if you really wanted. That said, as Rabbitslayer noted, there is a fair amount of misinformation which give folks the idea that if you have low numbers, you have the good load. I can tell you that you can have crazy low numbers and still have a load that shoots like a shotgun - and I have had some not so great numbers (10's) provide crazy tight groups out to six hundred yards when working up F-Class loads. But generally, with a good load, lower numbers are what you want - low single digits. Again, you don't need a chrono for a rifle to show you what it likes (or doesn't) on target. But the higher the numbers, the more vertical dispersion you are likely to get at greater distances. Again, with the chrono, you can calculate roughly what it will be - all good info.

 

[Bat Rastard]

A chronograph gives you more information to work with. If your numbers are grossly different than what the load data you are using that's a clue that you need to investigate.
Don't sweat ES and SD numbers at the beginning.
With all the new fancy chronos on the market , the used market has many opportunities to buy what was state of the art equipment a year ago. Keep your eyes open and pounce when the time is right.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

That bullet 50 fps change(shot to shot) is approximately 3" vertical at 500 yards. Shot some rounds at 500 yards, if you have more than 3" vertical dispersion its velocity related, you or the barrel. Probably only you know if you/rifle are capable of sub moa at 500 yards, are you always 1/2 moa or better at 100 yards?

 

[prone.life]

i don't worry too much about ES inside of 600. a chronograph can give you insight whether your shot went high/low bc velocity. what you're really worried about is the shot to shot delta which is impossible to know without a chrono. i've had some good ( < .333 moa) groups with higher than desired ES. i've won 600yd matches where my ES over the 60 or so rounds was in the 40's but my shot to shot variance most of the time was < 10. if somebody stole my garmin i'd probably pick up a used magnetospeed although scheels has a killer price on the V3 for $250 which is $200 less than elsewhere.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Welcome. Once your reloading techniques produce good groups at distance - good ES/SD will follow - not the other way round. A chrono is a good investment, you will always need to know your bullet speed - but for now the stats are unimportant. Later on, the stats will help refine your loading/bullet/powder choices.