FORUM NOTICE New Members -- 30-Day Restriction on Response to WTB

[DennisH]

If he sends you money's send him the items,

That's the bottom line! The only safe Payment System these days is "PayPal". I don't/cannot accept Credit Cards which is the safest way to purchase via the web!

No paper, Postal Money Orders, Cashiers Checks, Certified Checks are worthless these days. Contifeters have gotten pretty good these days! This info is coming from my bank.

I sold a 4 wheeler and took a Cashiers Check from an out of Town buyer. I wanted to cash the check. Bank wouldn't do it. They run Cashier Checks thru just like a personal check now! Thankfully it was legit!

If you receive an Electronic Check drawn off the buyers account, this is actually the 2nd best way to accept funds for purchases. The only thing that will stop this transaction is a lien or account hold generated by the IRS! Otherwise, your pretty safe.
____________________________________________________

NOTICE: I had a friend sell a 4 Wheeler to a person who paid for it with a friend of his personal check.

The "friend of the buyer" put a stop payment on the check! No conversations took place after the sale to indicate there may be a problem.

He (the buyers friend) indicated "theft" of the check, and stated he didn't realize the buyer was using one of his personal checks to purchase the 4 Wheeler! Yea, Right!

He stated (the actual buyers friend) the buyer took the check without his permission and purchased the 4 Wheeler. He kinda of change the story a little when it went legal.

Making it short, the friend of the buyer didn't buy anything.

The original seller sued the buyer, and it went to court (leaving out all the details).

Shortly, The seller lost his money (and 4 Wheeler) as the buyers "friend" didn't have any business with the seller whatsoever, and NO legal agreements to support the suit!

A very fine "LOOPHOLE" in the law, the person who actually purchased the 4 wheeler (with a 3rd Party Check) ended up with the 4 wheeler free of charge.

The buyer has the 4 Wheeler, has the signed title & bill of sale in his hands, all sales paperwork is MARKED "Paid in full" in his name, and it's notarized!

It's all worthless in the court eyes because the check came from a 3rd party who has no business interest whatsoever in the buy/sell transaction.

The icing on the already "creamy cake", the person who ended up with the 4 Wheeler received the "clear" title in his name free and clear of any lien's.

The seller tried to "Steal" it back, but the crooked purchaser called the Police on him. When the Police arrived, and of course tensions were very high, the Officers had to make several calls to help determine who is right in this situation, and monitor all who had gathered around them. It was determined the crooked buyer who had all the legal paperwork and Title in hand, all in his name matching his Drivers License, he of course had full rights of ownership of the 4 Wheeler. The Police actually asked the crooked buyer if he wanted to press charges against the seller! He declined to press charges as long as the seller agreed to quit "harassing" him!

The crooked buyer immediately SOLD the 4 Wheeler for "CASH" after receiving the clear title in his name, he signed over the paperwork at the notary's office to the "new" buyer, and left with a smile, and several thousands dollars in his pockets, and free from any legal charges or liabilities whatsoever! This crooked buyers TOTAL out of pocket expense was less than $50 dollars, and a few hours of his time. All this which is "legal" in the laws eyes!

The original owner lost the 4 wheeler (about $6,000 dollars), and after spending a little over $1,200 dollars in Attorney & Court Fees, he just stopped the legal action at this point. He legally was in a no win situation.

He was told by several in the motorcycles business, several professional friends, and other legal professionals he is fighting a losing battle, and might also end up paying (the person he took to court) all the legal fees this person owed from the suit he filed against him!

The 2 who showed up to buy the 4 Wheeler arrived in a nice Truck, well dressed, seemed professional, very friendly, and left no doubt whatsoever they just might be "professional thieves" with anyone present at the time of sale.

FYI for everyone! This is an actual event that really took place.

 

[Tommy64]

I only take a postal money order, cash it at the post office, then send out the item

 

[Fred B.]

He has 1 buy with positive feedback, if it means anything.
Safest would be a check. Cash it, then send the item to the name and address on the check.

 

[skeet_man]

The only safe Payment System these days is "PayPal".

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but paypal is far from safe.

EX. Buyer buys item from you, sends you paypal. You send the item, buyer opens claim staying the item you sent was broken. Paypal WILL side with the buyer, and make you accept a return. You receive a return, and it's a box full of rocks. Buyer WILL get his money back, and it will be EXTREMELY difficult for you to fight it, about the only time the seller wins these is if the buyer has a repeated history of fraud. You can file a mail fraud case w/ USPS, but chances of you ever getting the $ or item back are VERY slim unless its VERY high $ involved.

Had a similar thing happen to me on ebay, albeit in a bit of a funny way. Sold a pistol mag, buyer opens a claim stating that the mag I sent was not the one I advertised (the mag was NIB, and I knew it was the right one). Decided it wasn't worth the fight, even though I knew I was right, so I accepted the return, and had to eat shipping costs BOTH ways. Rec'd the return, and the mag I received was not the one I sent, it was still in the box, which had been cut, and was a different caliber (so basically the buyer used me as an all expenses paid free exchange service). Reported him to ebay, listed the mag, and made more on it than the original one. Moral of the story, if the buyer claims wrong/broken item, ebay/paypal WILL force a return, and there is no guarantee what you're getting back. NEVER accept paypal for an item you cannot afford to get shafted on.

USPS money orders only for me unless i know the buyer or its small $, you can call the verification 800# and verify it's legit, there is a SLIM chance the buyer could have a real money order drawn, then create a fake one w/ the same credentials, then cash the real one later, but that'd be pretty easy to track and is not something I've ever heard of happening. Cashing a USPS MO at the post office isn't foolproof either, they do not have the means to ensure it's genuine at the PO and if it comes back fake they WILL come after you for the $ back, so call the verification number for any amount you're not comfortable losing.

 

[DennisH]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but paypal is far from safe.

EX. Buyer buys item from you, sends you paypal. You send the item, buyer opens claim staying the item you sent was broken. Paypal WILL side with the buyer, and make you accept a return. You receive a return, and it's a box full of rocks. Buyer WILL get his money back, and it will be EXTREMELY difficult for you to fight it, about the only time the seller wins these is if the buyer has a repeated history of fraud. You can file a mail fraud case w/ USPS, but chances of you ever getting the $ or item back are VERY slim unless its VERY high $ involved.

Had a similar thing happen to me on ebay, albeit in a bit of a funny way. Sold a pistol mag, buyer opens a claim stating that the mag I sent was not the one I advertised (the mag was NIB, and I knew it was the right one). Decided it wasn't worth the fight, even though I knew I was right, so I accepted the return, and had to eat shipping costs BOTH ways. Rec'd the return, and the mag I received was not the one I sent, it was still in the box, which had been cut, and was a different caliber (so basically the buyer used me as an all expenses paid free exchange service). Reported him to ebay, listed the mag, and made more on it than the original one. Moral of the story, if the buyer claims wrong/broken item, ebay/paypal WILL force a return, and there is no guarantee what you're getting back. NEVER accept paypal for an item you cannot afford to get shafted on.

USPS money orders only for me unless i know the buyer or its small $, you can call the verification 800# and verify it's legit, there is a SLIM chance the buyer could have a real money order drawn, then create a fake one w/ the same credentials, then cash the real one later, but that'd be pretty easy to track and is not something I've ever heard of happening. Cashing a USPS MO at the post office isn't foolproof either, they do not have the means to ensure it's genuine at the PO and if it comes back fake they WILL come after you for the $ back, so call the verification number for any amount you're not comfortable losing.

I have stated many times on this forum, PMO's are worthless these days, unless you know the person. "ALL" paper money of any kind is treated like a personal checks.

Interesting story you have. Was the item insured?

"To ADD to this STORY", don't "EVER" accept a Credit Card or PayPal payment from a "friend" of the buyer. 3rd party payment. It's usually a scam, and you have "0" recourse.

I sold a rifle to a person who used his friends Credit Card for payment. The friend tried to have the payment reversed! $1,500 rifle. He stated "his" friend used the Credit Card without his permission. Sold using a 3rd party "credit card". The "ONLY" thing that saved me was the "SIGNED 4473" with the buyers signature on it. I presented this info the the Credit Card company and threaten legal action as he had signed for it at the FFL of his choice. I contacted his FFL who was more than willing to help and testify as they were equally upset this person was doing this. I finally accepted a chargeback for shipping to close this matter. However, as you stated, the seller is the victim almost all of the time! Now, If I sell a rifle, I demand drivers license pictures from the buyer, and I demand a copy of the signed 4473 once picked up by the buyer, and I also check out the address on Google Earth! NOTE: Major institutions do this without your knowledge. I was talking to an insurance agent who happened to mention my Pool. I asked him how he knew I had a poole. This was not homeowners insurance, other insurance business. He admitted he was looking at my home on Google Earth as it gives him an idea of who he is dealing with. I also look at the buyers history on all sites.

If I smell a rat, it usually is. Suggestion to everyone. If you receive credit card payments, immediately take it out of the bank and put it in another account. Once a protest is received by the Credit Card company, they "WILL" withdraw the payment from your account without contacting you. They can do this, it's in the fine print that you agree with and authorized.

And for "ALL", this is a common practice across the US. People who know the law and processes will do so without a thought, I call it "LEGAL THEFT"! I could share several stories like this, 2 were over $20,000 dollar transactions.

Just yesterday, I am have money "wired" to me. I was contact by my bank was told I had to hire a "professional" firm to handle the transfer as now "Wire Transfers" are widely being counterfeited, or they are just Fraudulent transaction.

So seriously, who do you trust. I have processes thousands of PayPal payment, plus sending payments, and also have do so with Credit Cards.

PayPal always advertise their transactions protect the buyer & seller! Is this fraudulent advertising, seriously! It will affect the way I do business in the future. It's already sad if you receive a "Cash" payment, you have to go to the bank to have the bills certified as legit!

FWIW, a fuel/quick stop store close to my home, I stopped there on morning to pick up a cup of coffee for my trip. I gave the clerk my 2 $1.00 bills, and she checked them, then screamed so everyone could hear, "THE BILLS ARE COUNTERFEIT! Kinda embarrassing. She was suppose to retain them and turn them over to the Secret Service. I asked her for my bills back, and she did return them. I paid for my coffee with my Credit Card, and went straight to the bank with them. The bank certified them a "real".

The bank stated apparently who ever had them before me worked in an environment that handled certain chemicals that contaminate the bills, or someone had them who sweated a lot! It was almost not worth it, but after going back to the store who announced to the entire store they were counterfeit, I informed them of my banks finding, and I made sure the store knew as well! NOTE: I have been going to this store for years, and the tellers knew me well! I also asked to speak to the owners, and I did. Sadly these days everyone has to be careful. This store was receiving a lot of counterfeit bills, even one dollar bills. This happened several months after the "great" flood of Louisiana, August 2016. We had many out of state contractors who were ripping off everyone. Almost 70% of home owners houses flooded in our County/Parish. This was a "perfect storm" for us. Were all use to hurricanes, but not a storm that sat still for almost 3 days dumping in excess of 30's of rain. I don't think any county in this country could have drained that much water at one time. The storm stopped in between our two main river drain offs.

I don't know what the future holds for all of us, but our money system is failing!

Long story/reply, but a nerve was hit! I hope some of this helps some others.

Thanks, Dennis

 

[skeet_man]

PayPal always advertise their transactions protect the buyer & seller! Is this fraudulent advertising, seriously!

Basically it is. Paypal will side with the buyer first (basically, if there is a dispute, paypal will ALWAYS assume the seller is guilty and the buyer is innocent), then it's up to the seller to provide proof. A picture of a box of rocks the buyer sent you doesn't count as proof, long story short, it is virtually impossible for a seller to prove fraud to paypals satisfaction. Do not count on Paypal to EVER side with the seller, yes, it does occasionally happen, but it's usually b/c a scammer slipped up and admitted to the scam, and regardless it will be an uphill battle the whole way.

 

[skeet_man]

Interesting story you have. Was the item insured?

Didnt bother, it was only a $30 magazine.

 

[DennisH]

Basically it is. Paypal will side with the buyer first (basically, if there is a dispute, paypal will ALWAYS assume the seller is guilty and the buyer is innocent), then it's up to the seller to provide proof. A picture of a box of rocks the buyer sent you doesn't count as proof, long story short, it is virtually impossible for a seller to prove fraud to paypals satisfaction. Do not count on Paypal to EVER side with the seller, yes, it does occasionally happen, but it's usually b/c a scammer slipped up and admitted to the scam, and regardless it will be an uphill battle the whole way.

Credit Card Companies are the same way! The transaction I described above (rifle sale), "MY" credit card company "drilled" me to death until I produced the signed 4473. I told "all" parties I will take this to court. I had to explain to the Credit Card Company the "buyer" chooses the FFL of his choice in his home city! Then I had the signed 4473 from the buyers FFL choice.

I had to explain this to the Credit Card Company. I finally told my Credit Card representative to have their lawyer contact me, and he might understand, or he would contact someone who did. I did not make these choices. The buyer did. I also called my Lawyer and explained the situation. He is very familiar with the 4473 procedures. He stated "no problem" let me know what happens. He stated with the info you have, I don't believe any court would rule against you.

The Credit Card Company was at a loss when I stated this. Then the buyer/3rd Party finally "admitted" they lied when the Credit Card Company confronted them with this information!!!!!!! Then they stated they did not agree to the shipping charges, and didn't authorize them, another lie.

My Credit Card company drilled me to death until I just gave in and refunded the Shipping Charges. I did this just to get this settled once and for all! My lawyer "who is on retainer" with me, well his fee would have been a little more vs. the shipping charges.

"LEGAL THEFT", any questions of me, just ask. It doesn't matter if it involves an individual, or a company, they know what to do to acquire "FREE" goods! And do it while they are laughing in your face. If it's a company, if one "i" is not dotted, or if one "t" is not crossed, they will deny the payment.

If I had time, I would explain to anyone "how" to acquire a brand new vehicle, Free of Charge, with the "clear" title in your hands. Totally legal in the laws eyes. Some one has to "know" the laws to pull this off, so it might be best if I not share this secret. It happens across the country annually. It's just not advertised as it "could" harm the companies reputation, plus educate others.

And with any "Credit Card" transactions, look at your receipt before signing. You would be surprised what your customer adds in the bill, or if your dining, you would be surprised what the restaurant will add to their bill. I have personally caught restaurants padding the bill! The server passes it off as a mistake,usually with an almost believable explanation.

JMO, Dennis

 

[Concha]

Thank Boss. I only deal with guys that I've seen/know for a while here on the forum.

 

[Whisky Tahoe Foxtrot]

I'm a new member and I fully support this. With all the fraud on Craigslist, E-bay, and Pay-pal, there is almost no trust left. I'm more than happy to wait for the privilege to shop or sell. In some ways it helps me deal with my reloading equipment and optics addictions.

 

[hoz53]

I have stated many times on this forum, PMO's are worthless these days, unless you know the person. "ALL" paper money of any kind is treated like a personal checks.

Interesting story you have. Was the item insured?

"To ADD to this STORY", don't "EVER" accept a Credit Card or PayPal payment from a "friend" of the buyer. 3rd party payment. It's usually a scam, and you have "0" recourse.

I sold a rifle to a person who used his friends Credit Card for payment. The friend tried to have the payment reversed! $1,500 rifle. He stated "his" friend used the Credit Card without his permission. Sold using a 3rd party "credit card". The "ONLY" thing that saved me was the "SIGNED 4473" with the buyers signature on it. I presented this info the the Credit Card company and threaten legal action as he had signed for it at the FFL of his choice. I contacted his FFL who was more than willing to help and testify as they were equally upset this person was doing this. I finally accepted a chargeback for shipping to close this matter. However, as you stated, the seller is the victim almost all of the time! Now, If I sell a rifle, I demand drivers license pictures from the buyer, and I demand a copy of the signed 4473 once picked up by the buyer, and I also check out the address on Google Earth! NOTE: Major institutions do this without your knowledge. I was talking to an insurance agent who happened to mention my Pool. I asked him how he knew I had a poole. This was not homeowners insurance, other insurance business. He admitted he was looking at my home on Google Earth as it gives him an idea of who he is dealing with. I also look at the buyers history on all sites.

If I smell a rat, it usually is. Suggestion to everyone. If you receive credit card payments, immediately take it out of the bank and put it in another account. Once a protest is received by the Credit Card company, they "WILL" withdraw the payment from your account without contacting you. They can do this, it's in the fine print that you agree with and authorized.

And for "ALL", this is a common practice across the US. People who know the law and processes will do so without a thought, I call it "LEGAL THEFT"! I could share several stories like this, 2 were over $20,000 dollar transactions.

Just yesterday, I am have money "wired" to me. I was contact by my bank was told I had to hire a "professional" firm to handle the transfer as now "Wire Transfers" are widely being counterfeited, or they are just Fraudulent transaction.

So seriously, who do you trust. I have processes thousands of PayPal payment, plus sending payments, and also have do so with Credit Cards.

PayPal always advertise their transactions protect the buyer & seller! Is this fraudulent advertising, seriously! It will affect the way I do business in the future. It's already sad if you receive a "Cash" payment, you have to go to the bank to have the bills certified as legit!

FWIW, a fuel/quick stop store close to my home, I stopped there on morning to pick up a cup of coffee for my trip. I gave the clerk my 2 $1.00 bills, and she checked them, then screamed so everyone could hear, "THE BILLS ARE COUNTERFEIT! Kinda embarrassing. She was suppose to retain them and turn them over to the Secret Service. I asked her for my bills back, and she did return them. I paid for my coffee with my Credit Card, and went straight to the bank with them. The bank certified them a "real".

The bank stated apparently who ever had them before me worked in an environment that handled certain chemicals that contaminate the bills, or someone had them who sweated a lot! It was almost not worth it, but after going back to the store who announced to the entire store they were counterfeit, I informed them of my banks finding, and I made sure the store knew as well! NOTE: I have been going to this store for years, and the tellers knew me well! I also asked to speak to the owners, and I did. Sadly these days everyone has to be careful. This store was receiving a lot of counterfeit bills, even one dollar bills. This happened several months after the "great" flood of Louisiana, August 2016. We had many out of state contractors who were ripping off everyone. Almost 70% of home owners houses flooded in our County/Parish. This was a "perfect storm" for us. Were all use to hurricanes, but not a storm that sat still for almost 3 days dumping in excess of 30's of rain. I don't think any county in this country could have drained that much water at one time. The storm stopped in between our two main river drain offs.

I don't know what the future holds for all of us, but our money system is failing!

Long story/reply, but a nerve was hit! I hope some of this helps some others.

Thanks, Dennis

i set up a square account and got the little card reader that hooks to my phone. I did this just to use it in case someone wanted to use a card to purchase some guns I had. They were worth a couple thousand each. I was highly skeptical about this service but an auction company took my card at an auction for 1800.00 using it, so I thought they must be secure somehow. My bank said otherwise though. They said if there was a problem with the payment i wouldnt get credited for it. I dont know how they (square) convinces people they are secure but i decided not to use their service.

 

[AllThingsAI]

Should also require a minimum number of posts to the forum. Archerytalk does this and it works quite well with a wait period AND a minimum number of posts to the forums.

Please continue to weed out the scum.

 

[jchessher]

I understand the process of waiting to weed out the jerks, it just sucks being in that 30 day wait period when you’re one of the trustworthy guys!

 

[Greymatter762]

In the past month there has been an increasing number of new members (with zero trade history) offering items in response to WTB threads. They may be trying to defraud -- offering something they will never deliver. Sometimes they just ask an apparently innocent question, but want to steal your email address.

They typically do this within a day or two of joining the site. They are blocked from starting their own thread so this is an attempt to cheat "through the back door".

Because of this we are thinking of imposing a full 30-day blackout.

So here's the deal. For now, if you have a WTB thread and a member with less than 30 days standing offers something, DO NOT BUY. DO NOT give out your email address. Send the user's name to us and we will investigate.

And for legitimate new members -- We request you Do NOT offer to sell something in the first month of your membership. We want to evaluate the best way to defeat these scammers. It helps if the honest, legitimate new members just don't respond to WTB notices for 30 days.

We will codify this rule more as we develop enforcement mechanisms.

Always trouble makers trying to ice skate uphill. Ruining it for legit new members. I have plenty of trade items I'd love to put out so I can acquire the items I need. I understand and will wait patiently.

 

[D-4297]

Been on the site for a few years now ; and followed the rules regarding the 30 day ban . I have made one purchase from another member , and was very pleased with the way the transaction went . The Forum Boss has put these rules and procedures in place to help protect all of us , but no matter how many procedures , rules are there , some low-life , thievin scumbag will always try to come up with a new "wrinkle". Always remember what Grand-Dad said . "If it sounds to good to be true , it is".

 

[urbanrifleman]

If he sends you money's send him the items,

That is always a good indicator of intent

 

[Bill616]

In the past month there has been an increasing number of new members (with zero trade history) offering items in response to WTB threads. They may be trying to defraud -- offering something they will never deliver. Sometimes they just ask an apparently innocent question, but want to steal your email address.

They typically do this within a day or two of joining the site. They are blocked from starting their own thread so this is an attempt to cheat "through the back door".

Because of this we are thinking of imposing a full 30-day blackout.

So here's the deal. For now, if you have a WTB thread and a member with less than 30 days standing offers something, DO NOT BUY. DO NOT give out your email address. Send the user's name to us and we will investigate.

And for legitimate new members -- We request you Do NOT offer to sell something in the first month of your membership. We want to evaluate the best way to defeat these scammers. It helps if the honest, legitimate new members just don't respond to WTB notices for 30 days.

We will codify this rule more as we develop enforcement mechanisms.

Boydhunter has been banned, and his contact info recorded for Law Enforcement.

A similar email was sent to another member, referencing a different gun.

———————-
I received this today to my e-mail address. I can't find this person listed as a member. The response went directly to my e-mail, not the forum ad. Sounds like anothe scammer.
Shooters' Forum
Boydhunter started a new conversation with you at Shooters' Forum.

Remington 870 pump, 20 gauge shotgun​

Hi if your still looking, I can help out with a lead, you can reach out to zipparo in Texas he has the Remington 870 pump, 20 gauge shotgun for sale this is his email address zipparomatt2205@gmail.com good luck

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[bustdluk]

In the past month there has been an increasing number of new members (with zero trade history) offering items in response to WTB threads. They may be trying to defraud -- offering something they will never deliver. Sometimes they just ask an apparently innocent question, but want to steal your email address.

They typically do this within a day or two of joining the site. They are blocked from starting their own thread so this is an attempt to cheat "through the back door".

Because of this we are thinking of imposing a full 30-day blackout.

So here's the deal. For now, if you have a WTB thread and a member with less than 30 days standing offers something, DO NOT BUY. DO NOT give out your email address. Send the user's name to us and we will investigate.

And for legitimate new members -- We request you Do NOT offer to sell something in the first month of your membership. We want to evaluate the best way to defeat these scammers. It helps if the honest, legitimate new members just don't respond to WTB notices for 30 days.

We will codify this rule more as we develop enforcement mechanisms.

Really Im not here to buy or sell . I only have firearm questions once in a great while . yet I know there are plenty of scammers trying to steal.

 

[Dave M.]

In the past month there has been an increasing number of new members (with zero trade history) offering items in response to WTB threads. They may be trying to defraud -- offering something they will never deliver. Sometimes they just ask an apparently innocent question, but want to steal your email address.

They typically do this within a day or two of joining the site. They are blocked from starting their own thread so this is an attempt to cheat "through the back door".

Because of this we are thinking of imposing a full 30-day blackout.

So here's the deal. For now, if you have a WTB thread and a member with less than 30 days standing offers something, DO NOT BUY. DO NOT give out your email address. Send the user's name to us and we will investigate.

And for legitimate new members -- We request you Do NOT offer to sell something in the first month of your membership. We want to evaluate the best way to defeat these scammers. It helps if the honest, legitimate new members just don't respond to WTB notices for 30 days.

We will codify this rule more as we develop enforcement mechanisms.

It’s a shame that people will to such extremes to part good people with their money. Sorry times we are living in.

Dave M.

 

[Fishnskeet]

Anyone know Jeffery163 ? New member wanting to sell me a scope.