New Lapua brass vs fire formed and seating consistency

[Tesoro]

Because the lcd process transfers any case thickness inconsistency to the outside ( where it dosent matter in a no turn neck chamber) and leaves a perfectly round and aligned tube inside the neck. When you use a bushing to squash the neck down to size then any inconsistency in thickness is transferred to the inside, and you wind up having to shove a round bullet into a not so round a tube. This causes the bullets to not be pointed as straight as with the lcd on average. Imo seating after using a bushing only works great when you turn necks so they have a consistent thickness, and you dont reduce them much per bushing stage so as to not deform the neck alignment. Or Bushings work great if you under size the neck and then run it through a mandrel die to expand out to your target size. But then you are doing 2 steps in reverse of what a lcd does in one step!

In a perfect world Mr. Wilson would have invented and patented the neck collet die! But there are things you can do to the lcd to clean one up.

 

[Tesoro]

I've also had similar experiences with my .308 blue boxes. I've tried running a mandrel through them and got a slight improvement, mostly making sure there's no dents on the mouth. But what worked best for me was simply using my Lee collet die, which squeezes the necks tight against a mandrel and that apparently gets rid of whatever is going on inside of the case necks as seating became way more consistent.

Have you ever tried annealing your 308 before first time run in the lcd? I have some old but new 30-06 Lapua I bought off a guy and annealed it beforehand. I got very consistent seating pressure (and very straight) with the lcd. I just loaded up another 20 of the same new batch without annealing ( lazy) and my seating pressure was much higher and not as consistent feeling. I am going to pull all 20. I have to run a mandrel thru all of my new '06 to open up as new they wont slide up the lcd mandrel. ( stock 2 tho).

 

[mikecr]

In a perfect world Mr. Wilson would have invented and patented the neck collet die!

Perhaps a collet die that allows easy adjustment of size and sizing length.
And I would still use mandrel expansion with it, so that bullet grip does not weaken with time.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I wonder how I got this result? I loaded 50 rounds yesterday for an upcoming 1000 yd steel match of 6brx. 49 of the 50 loaded rounds measured base to ogive were with in a total of .0005. They were with either at zero or less than .0005 long. None short. I had one .002 long but after sorting bullets one day I had a stray bullet.I just threw it in one of the sorted groups, I think I found it,lol. Bushing die used and no mandrel.

 

[Tesoro]

Perhaps a collet die that allows easy adjustment of size and sizing length.
And I would still use mandrel expansion with it, so that bullet grip does not weaken with time.

I not getting the second sentence? interested

 

[mikecr]

When you downsize the brass springs back outwards. It keeps springing back outward over time.
It just takes awhile for brass to reach the lowest energy it can. Days, weeks, months.
This isn't just with necks. It's everywhere you add downsizing energy as a last action, including case body and shoulder. It's same with up sizing,, but opposite direction.

I wouldn't want my bullet grip to relax over time, so my last neck action is expansion, setting up an inward spring back bias.
This is true of bullet seating, but bullets should not be used in-place of hardened mandrels.
We really should not size necks with our bullets.

 

[Tesoro]

Oh I see wha you are getting at. Has anyone done any testing on this theory with light tension in the 1-2 tho range? I guess one could use an arbor bullet seater with a gauge.

 

[padom]

As mentioned above, varying seating force is the cause on virgin brass. I actually called Redding many years ago.about this and they told me this exact thing. Said go shoot the Virgin brass then check seating consistency....1x was spot on...

I also found virgin lapua has excessive neck tension. I run a 21st century TiN T mandrel through and it leaves me with 0.002 neck tension.

 

[Tesoro]

As mentioned above, varying seating force is the cause on virgin brass. I actually called Redding many years ago.about this and they told me this exact thing. Said go shoot the Virgin brass then check seating consistency....1x was spot on...

I am going to try annealing some of my virgin 6br Lapua. It worked for my '06 Lapua. Even the cheap bullets are expensive nowdays. The virgin annealed necks feel hard and stiff to me when I use a lcd.

 

[padom]

I am going to try annealing some of my virgin 6br Lapua. It worked for my '06 Lapua. Even the cheap bullets are expensive nowdays. The virgin annealed necks feel hard and stiff to me when I use a lcd.

Is your virgin lapua not shooting well? I get excellent accuracy from virgin lapua.

 

[Tesoro]

Is your virgin lapua not shooting well? I get excellent accuracy from virgin lapua.

yes i just shot 1/4moa 5x at 100 for load development with sweat in my eyes and before tweaking the charge BUT those were the virgin cartridges I set aside by feel of the seating. Many others were harder per my arbor press so i set them in another pile for the extreme seating tests and got bad groups but not sure if is was the inconsistent seating or the jumps or combo.. Once fired then they all seat like butter, so I can only reason the virgin brass has varying degrees of hardness but I dont know much and just shoot a 22in sporter barrel field gun with 10x scope but well accurized so not the gun. might just be the box i opened...

 

[padom]

yes i just shot 1/4moa 5x at 100 for load development with sweat in my eyes and before tweaking the charge BUT those were the virgin cartridges I set aside by feel of the seating. Many others were harder per my arbor press so i set them in another pile for the extreme seating tests and got bad groups but not sure if is was the inconsistent seating or the jumps or combo.. Once fired then they all seat like butter, so I can only reason the virgin brass has varying degrees of hardness but I dont know much and just shoot a 22in sporter barrel field gun with 10x scope but well accurized so not the gun. might just be the box i opened...

I would say varying neck tension not varying hardness. Lapua comes freshly annealed from the factory, I have never heard of annealing freshly annealed brand new virgin brass but hey I guess there is always a first... All of this is why I dont start load development until I have 1x brass in my rifle.

 

[Tesoro]

As mentioned above, varying seating force is the cause on virgin brass. I actually called Redding many years ago.about this and they told me this exact thing. Said go shoot the Virgin brass then check seating consistency....1x was spot on...

I also found virgin lapua has excessive neck tension. I run a 21st century TiN T mandrel through and it leaves me with 0.002 neck tension.

hmm. somehow i missed the second sentence or you added it afterwards. I also have a 21c tin mandrel. I will try that and not mess anymore with the virgin necks than that! Thanks Sounds like the fast and easy way to do things! Maybe I'll just practice offhand shooting at steel for the first firings of a new box.!

 

[Tesoro]

Yes Sir‘ some real smart guys talk about spring back but never show how they determine that or how that phenomenon occurs, on the other hand a dumb hillbilly like myself has once fired brass un annealed and sized over a month ago with a .261 bushing and this morning, they are still exactly where I left them.

Re-measure it on the full moon and see if is it is still at .2610

 

[Tesoro]

Nothing wring with a little kidding around!

 

[mrjdasr]

This is the second time, second blue box, where this has happened to me. I am using 105VLD in 6Br. I take new brass, run through body die to check and then set neck with my LCD and then chamfer for vld. All the brass is a tad undersize with healthy shoulder setback as usual. However when I seat the bullets with my Wilson arbor I can get erratic BTO's with up to 4 tho variance.

BUT if I do the identical process as above (less chamfer obviously) with 5-10x cases then I can seat the same bullets all dead nuts with at most a thousandth variance, excluding a rare and occasional cull.

So my conclusion is the new cases or bases have a little warp to them and need a firing to get flattened out and squared up. Makes sense to me, but what does not is how many times I have read of people shooting noteworthy scores in matches with new brass. Would this be attributed to them using a conventional press with a shell holder that indexes off the top of the rim base? Or using a different case brand or what am I missing? ( not enough lube when seating in the new clean necks or too much nt?)

Because the lcd process transfers any case thickness inconsistency to the outside ( where it dosent matter in a no turn neck chamber) and leaves a perfectly round and aligned tube inside the neck. When you use a bushing to squash the neck down to size then any inconsistency in thickness is transferred to the inside, and you wind up having to shove a round bullet into a not so round a tube. This causes the bullets to not be pointed as straight as with the lcd on average. Imo seating after using a bushing only works great when you turn necks so they have a consistent thickness, and you dont reduce them much per bushing stage so as to not deform the neck alignment. Or Bushings work great if you under size the neck and then run it through a mandrel die to expand out to your target size. But then you are doing 2 steps in reverse of what a lcd does in one step!

In a perfect world Mr. Wilson would have invented and patented the neck collet die! But there are things you can do to the lcd to clean one up.

where do you get a"LCD"for a 6 BR

 

[Tesoro]

where do you get a"LCD"for a 6 BR

From Lee Reloading. They will make one to fit your chamber if u send in casings.

 

[Tesoro]

Stop press: I am not going to extol the lcd anymore! Yes the concept is genius and can make super straight ammo and simply but the quality of the ($100) custom die I received is garbage. When I got it and took apart, the outside of the collett was full of ring machine marks wihich would grab on the edge of the bushing on extraction. So I took out the diamond pastes and dremel and polished it up beautifully and lubed. Not a big deal. I have loaded around 200x with the die and just took it apart to inspect with a loupe. By the looks it appears the collett ( and the rest) is made with some kind of recycled ss kitchen pots and pans chinese scrap crap. The die is shedding rust spots and the outside of collett which jams into the bushing is already getting some bad gouges. This means the petals arent exerting even pressure and the die is starting to 'pop' on extraction. Some might say that I am exerting too much pressure, but nope I have my little Harrels c-press set on cam lock where I barely wind up with 2 tho tension and zero impressions on my 6br case necks, unless I smoke them. And yes I know Lee and Accurate Shooter are contradictions! However my Lee $30 thrower is way more precise and consistent than my $200 Redding competition for stick powder. If only Lee would up their game!! I dont like to rag on a manufacturer but in this case I see them blowing a missed opportunity.Back to the Wilson and bushings!! Live and learn

 

[Old Navy]

This is the reason why Harrell's want brass that was fired three times to make you a die. I only have one of their dies and it is the best one on the rack.