jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
You are mistaken. I have not sent you any PM’s.
New Brass prep service offering.
- Thread starter Black Sheep
- Start date
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I’m waiting on a response.
Why did you say I sent you two PM’s? I’m sure you know that all PM messages can be traced? Do you not know that all PM messages are on file?
I’m sure that if you did get two PM messages saying they were from me, the Forum Boss can ascertain exactly where they originated.
If you didn’t, then that is a topic for another discussion.
Why did you say I sent you two PM’s? I’m sure you know that all PM messages can be traced? Do you not know that all PM messages are on file?
I’m sure that if you did get two PM messages saying they were from me, the Forum Boss can ascertain exactly where they originated.
If you didn’t, then that is a topic for another discussion.
Black Sheep
Gold $$ Contributor
I said you had replied twice and sent a PM, I was wrong on both counts. You are correct and I do apologize, it was someone else that has a picture of an engine as their avatar and I didn't look that closely at it. Again I do apologize.
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Black Sheep
Gold $$ Contributor
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I accept that. Thank You.
If you post something in the Reloading Forum, I think a discussion should be expected.
Also, if someone is advertising a business on the forum, shouldn't that person be a forum sponsor, or isn't that person required to be a forum sponsor, in which case it would be posted in the Commercial Sales By Paid Sponsors forum?
If it had been posted in the Commercial Sales forum, I think you could have reasonable expectation that there would be no discussion about the service being offered.
Also, if someone is advertising a business on the forum, shouldn't that person be a forum sponsor, or isn't that person required to be a forum sponsor, in which case it would be posted in the Commercial Sales By Paid Sponsors forum?
If it had been posted in the Commercial Sales forum, I think you could have reasonable expectation that there would be no discussion about the service being offered.
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Jager
Gold $$ Contributor
This thing kinda went sideways, huh?
@Black Sheep, good luck with your new venture. FWIW, I don't think the members here were trying to rain on your parade so much as to correct some misimpression's you might have had regarding neck turning.
You probably don't want to offer a service neck-turning ID only. Either turn OD, or both ID and OD.
You probably want to advise your potential new customers that the amount of cartridge runout must be less than the amount of brass removed during the turning process. Achieving that isn't hard with good brass (Lapua, Peterson, Alpha), but it is a thing.
And, yeah, some of us come here for the discussions, not to buy and sell. Putting your post here rather than the classifieds certainly gets more eyeballs. With that, you're gonna get more opinions. Which is cool.
No worries. And good luck!
@Black Sheep, good luck with your new venture. FWIW, I don't think the members here were trying to rain on your parade so much as to correct some misimpression's you might have had regarding neck turning.
You probably don't want to offer a service neck-turning ID only. Either turn OD, or both ID and OD.
You probably want to advise your potential new customers that the amount of cartridge runout must be less than the amount of brass removed during the turning process. Achieving that isn't hard with good brass (Lapua, Peterson, Alpha), but it is a thing.
And, yeah, some of us come here for the discussions, not to buy and sell. Putting your post here rather than the classifieds certainly gets more eyeballs. With that, you're gonna get more opinions. Which is cool.
No worries. And good luck!
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
My Dad (RIP) use to say, if you are hungry and someone offers you an apple with a rotten place on it, eat the good part and throw the bad part away.
Get over having your feelings hurt by true and useable information. I assure you, no one is trying to sabotage your new business venture.
You got some good advice from wise people that know what they are talking about. Put it to good use and throw the rest away. Your business will flourish a lots faster and the product you offer will be better if you do so.
Btw, I prefer advice with no sugar, no preservatives. Less room for misunderstanding.
Get over having your feelings hurt by true and useable information. I assure you, no one is trying to sabotage your new business venture.
You got some good advice from wise people that know what they are talking about. Put it to good use and throw the rest away. Your business will flourish a lots faster and the product you offer will be better if you do so.
Btw, I prefer advice with no sugar, no preservatives. Less room for misunderstanding.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Because of my comments in this thread, I have acquired a new name. A member sent me a personal message calling me a “Keyboard Bully”.
Should I include that in my Avatar?
Should I include that in my Avatar?
jvw2008
Lose the Second and we lose them all.
Been away a bit and just ran across this thread. I’m an autoDOD user and found the discussion on the ID/OD equipment incomplete. I may be incorrect but I got the feeling (reading between the lines) that most of the negative comments come from folks who have hands on experience with the IDOD. I don’t know which negative comments come from this particular group but the posters would know. I would like to suggest that comparing the IDOD to the OP’s autoDOD might be misleading. Yes they are essentially the same machine, but the product produced from the auto DOD, IMO is a huge step up from the manually operated IDOD. The powered feed on the autoDOD produces the same machining on each case, case after case. There are no manually induced variations in case cutting and the motor driven case feed generates an ID neck surface that is not significantly more rough than a good carbon deposit. If bullet or neck lube is in your seating protocol, the very minimal roughness of the ID surface is a non issue.
Relative to initial neck concentricity, the instructions that are issued with the autoDOD are explicit regarding how concentric necks must be to be used with the equipment. I have yet (recently) to find any high quality new brass that doesn’t fall within the specified range. If those new necks are off a tiny bit before turning, they won’t be after.
As with any equipment, it is only appropriate to judge the quality of what it does within its stated limitations.
There are problems with the autoDOD or IDOD that have not been discussed on this thread. Number one they are not the same animal. Further, if you are not removing 2 thousandths or more thickness from your necks, don’t use it - period. The mandrel turners will do a better job in that situation. Secondly, you can only use the ID/OD turning method once on your brass. Brass that has been once turned, cycled many times, and needs to be freshened with another turn to get back to the desired neck wall thickness, are not amenable to the ID/OD approach. They need to be freshened on a mandrel turner.
Bottom line, the IDOD/autoDOD equipment has some very specific requirements that limit its broad application to neck turning. So why would anyone spend that kind of money to buy one? You only have to use an autoDOD once to answer that question. When you stay within the equipments limitations, it is effortless. When was the last time you connected that word with turning necks? And by the way effortless is not a term I would apply the the IDOD, only the autoDOD. It is not only effortless, the quality of the turn is superb. With 500 virgin unturned cases sitting on your bench, the autoDOD is your best friend for the first turn. 20-30 seconds per case and a great result will put a smile on your face. So to sum this up, the autoDOD is expensive, it has limited application, and it’s only appropriate for a select few reloaders - IMO. To put in a little plug here - when not using the autoDOD, I’m real pleased with the result I get with the XXI Century lathe equipment.
Relative to initial neck concentricity, the instructions that are issued with the autoDOD are explicit regarding how concentric necks must be to be used with the equipment. I have yet (recently) to find any high quality new brass that doesn’t fall within the specified range. If those new necks are off a tiny bit before turning, they won’t be after.
As with any equipment, it is only appropriate to judge the quality of what it does within its stated limitations.
There are problems with the autoDOD or IDOD that have not been discussed on this thread. Number one they are not the same animal. Further, if you are not removing 2 thousandths or more thickness from your necks, don’t use it - period. The mandrel turners will do a better job in that situation. Secondly, you can only use the ID/OD turning method once on your brass. Brass that has been once turned, cycled many times, and needs to be freshened with another turn to get back to the desired neck wall thickness, are not amenable to the ID/OD approach. They need to be freshened on a mandrel turner.
Bottom line, the IDOD/autoDOD equipment has some very specific requirements that limit its broad application to neck turning. So why would anyone spend that kind of money to buy one? You only have to use an autoDOD once to answer that question. When you stay within the equipments limitations, it is effortless. When was the last time you connected that word with turning necks? And by the way effortless is not a term I would apply the the IDOD, only the autoDOD. It is not only effortless, the quality of the turn is superb. With 500 virgin unturned cases sitting on your bench, the autoDOD is your best friend for the first turn. 20-30 seconds per case and a great result will put a smile on your face. So to sum this up, the autoDOD is expensive, it has limited application, and it’s only appropriate for a select few reloaders - IMO. To put in a little plug here - when not using the autoDOD, I’m real pleased with the result I get with the XXI Century lathe equipment.
Finally an informed reply. Thanks for adding experienced based information rather than speculative opinion.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree, definitely an informed reply.
To be clear, just because some of the replies are from people that do not own or have not used an IDOD, does not mean that they are “uninformed” or “speculative”-“engaged in, expressing, or based on conjecture rather than knowledge.” I don’t know him, never met him, but if you have read some of Jackie’s post, you would understand why I write this. Some of these guys responding could build an IDOD, or set their lathes up to function like one.
I guess I feel the need to chim in here since some bad information is running rampid. One thing is sure you can count on here at AS is everyone has an opinion, right wrong or indifferent. The IDOD is like any other tool we use, garbage in garbage out. If your not wiling to do the work ahead of time then your results will suffer. I have been using the AutoDOD and IDOD since day one. I have SN 7 and who knows what on my 2nd machine is This is not a tool for the faint hearted, you need to do brass prep and you need to make sure your brass is straight before you even consider turning brass. I used to turn brass with K&M, Pumpkins hell I had 3 of them one for each caliber I shot and a 21st century. All great products and have there place. When the IDOD is setup properly and this takes time and FCP has great videos of how to on website it will turn out undeniably the nicest necks I have used. I will preface what I do and for me its MY best practice. I shoot all improved cases, 284 Shehane, 6bra, and an improved 6.5/7 PRC. They all take fireforming, so all my brass gets fireformed first. This is important, brass is going to flow move and shuffle around after its shot so I turn after I fireform works best for me. I can sit down and turn 500 pieces of brass with my AutoDOD in a sitting, turn on the TV and roll. I get a solid uniform neck that has very little to no inconsistencies. Hell I have probably turned 5K cases on my Serial #7 IDOD. I shoot Fclass, IBS and used to shoot short range and have used the IDOD for all of it. Its expensive and so is my time, so if I can turn one seasons worth of brass in a single sitting I am all in. Sometimes the juice isnt worth the squeeze, Its all about what makes you 100% confidant when you lay down behind the rifle and pull the trigger.
Annealing is no different, plenty of shooters I shoot with that dont anneal EVER and will put a whoopin on most. A drill and a torch will do the trick but an AMP is more scientific. Does Not mean the torch method is wrong or doesn't work. I dont see the need to bash someone if you dont like there product, Hell I drive a Dodge and dont think any less of a Chevy guy, even tho they sit when they pee.......
And good luck to @Blacksheep for starting a business trying to help fellow shooters.
Annealing is no different, plenty of shooters I shoot with that dont anneal EVER and will put a whoopin on most. A drill and a torch will do the trick but an AMP is more scientific. Does Not mean the torch method is wrong or doesn't work. I dont see the need to bash someone if you dont like there product, Hell I drive a Dodge and dont think any less of a Chevy guy, even tho they sit when they pee.......
And good luck to @Blacksheep for starting a business trying to help fellow shooters.
P1ZombieKiller
Silver $$ Contributor
Not true. I reached out to him on day 1 about what i have learned doing my brass business and wished him luck. There is most certainly room for someone else doing this.
dbramley
Dan Bramley
Ok, so I have read many opinions on the IDOD, so I thought I would throw mine into the mix. For reference I have been a serious F Class shooter for 12 years and if you don't know me, ask around about my credentials.
First off some one mentioned "as a machinist we blah blah" well the guy that makes these is a 3rd generation machinist and runs the family business down here in Phoenix. He's qualified.
I have used the IDOD and own serial number 2. It is not a toy and does require some mechanical skill to set up and use.
For those "serious" competitors, as in regular top ten etc, we would shoot brass through a no turn neck fire forming barrel first to "move" the brass where it needs to go, and straighten them out, then run them through the IDOD. Price we pay for our level of consistency. If you are going to neck up brass from say 6.5 to 7mm this will make the necks that much thinner to start with, so you only end up taking few thou off inside and outside. Yes, they need to be straight.
I you are turning brass without necking up there is plenty of wall thickness there to be "sloppy" with your setup and still fully clean up the neck. But if I was going to do this I would still run them through non bushing sizing die then expander to straighten them and get consistent size.
I would venture to guess that most of those "top competitors" that I am leading to South Africa next week use the IDOD.
It is a great produce made by a great guy. Is it for everyone, no. Will everyone be able to make it work up to its full potential, no. But if set up and used correctly, it is a fantastic machine which turns beautiful and very consistent brass.
Just my opinion, take if for what it is worth
Dan Bramley
First off some one mentioned "as a machinist we blah blah" well the guy that makes these is a 3rd generation machinist and runs the family business down here in Phoenix. He's qualified.
I have used the IDOD and own serial number 2. It is not a toy and does require some mechanical skill to set up and use.
For those "serious" competitors, as in regular top ten etc, we would shoot brass through a no turn neck fire forming barrel first to "move" the brass where it needs to go, and straighten them out, then run them through the IDOD. Price we pay for our level of consistency. If you are going to neck up brass from say 6.5 to 7mm this will make the necks that much thinner to start with, so you only end up taking few thou off inside and outside. Yes, they need to be straight.
I you are turning brass without necking up there is plenty of wall thickness there to be "sloppy" with your setup and still fully clean up the neck. But if I was going to do this I would still run them through non bushing sizing die then expander to straighten them and get consistent size.
I would venture to guess that most of those "top competitors" that I am leading to South Africa next week use the IDOD.
It is a great produce made by a great guy. Is it for everyone, no. Will everyone be able to make it work up to its full potential, no. But if set up and used correctly, it is a fantastic machine which turns beautiful and very consistent brass.
Just my opinion, take if for what it is worth
Dan Bramley
Acyr
Gold $$ Contributor
If anyone has any questions on the Idod or Autodod feel free to PM me anytime.
I work for Bryan Blake and personally have QC'd over 200 machines since I have worked there. I'm the guy. That means setting it up and turning brass to ensure proper function before we ship it. I can't even begin to guess how many pieces of brass I have turned on those machines. I know for a fact that .0002 neck wall thickness variation is the norm. If that is not good enough for some shooters that's ok. The machine is not for you. I also make all the case holders (have made hundreds of them) on a Haas TL2 to make sure cases fit properly inside the case holder which is critical. Every case holder is custom fit. Made one at a time to ensure the case turns true. We always recommend customers send us fired cases to ensure the best holder fit and to fireform their brass for the best results when turning them. I have turned most every brand of brass out there and can tell you there is a big difference in brass dimensions between brands and even between lots. Yes, even Lapua has inconsistent brass. Winchester is absolute garbage. As little as .001 difference in case taper can mean the difference between a properly fitting case versus one that won't work. jvw2008, Carden260, & dbramley have real world experience using these machines and have provided some honest feedback. We do try to put out a great product that we hope will serve the needs of competitive shooters. Are we perfect? No but we always will try to be and rectify any issue that may arise. We have shipped these (well over 300 so far) all over the world. We still struggle to keep up with new orders. So apparently someone likes us
I work for Bryan Blake and personally have QC'd over 200 machines since I have worked there. I'm the guy. That means setting it up and turning brass to ensure proper function before we ship it. I can't even begin to guess how many pieces of brass I have turned on those machines. I know for a fact that .0002 neck wall thickness variation is the norm. If that is not good enough for some shooters that's ok. The machine is not for you. I also make all the case holders (have made hundreds of them) on a Haas TL2 to make sure cases fit properly inside the case holder which is critical. Every case holder is custom fit. Made one at a time to ensure the case turns true. We always recommend customers send us fired cases to ensure the best holder fit and to fireform their brass for the best results when turning them. I have turned most every brand of brass out there and can tell you there is a big difference in brass dimensions between brands and even between lots. Yes, even Lapua has inconsistent brass. Winchester is absolute garbage. As little as .001 difference in case taper can mean the difference between a properly fitting case versus one that won't work. jvw2008, Carden260, & dbramley have real world experience using these machines and have provided some honest feedback. We do try to put out a great product that we hope will serve the needs of competitive shooters. Are we perfect? No but we always will try to be and rectify any issue that may arise. We have shipped these (well over 300 so far) all over the world. We still struggle to keep up with new orders. So apparently someone likes us
dbramley
Dan Bramley
Well said Andy, one of the most stand up guys I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.If anyone has any questions on the Idod or Autodod feel free to PM me anytime.
I work for Bryan Blake and personally have QC'd over 200 machines since I have worked there. I'm the guy. That means setting it up and turning brass to ensure proper function before we ship it. I can't even begin to guess how many pieces of brass I have turned on those machines. I know for a fact that .0002 neck wall thickness variation is the norm. If that is not good enough for some shooters that's ok. The machine is not for you. I also make all the case holders (have made hundreds of them) on a Haas TL2 to make sure cases fit properly inside the case holder which is critical. Every case holder is custom fit. Made one at a time to ensure the case turns true. We always recommend customers send us fired cases to ensure the best holder fit and to fireform their brass for the best results when turning them. I have turned most every brand of brass out there and can tell you there is a big difference in brass dimensions between brands and even between lots. Yes, even Lapua has inconsistent brass. Winchester is absolute garbage. As little as .001 difference in case taper can mean the difference between a properly fitting case versus one that won't work. jvw2008, Carden260, & dbramley have real world experience using these machines and have provided some honest feedback. We do try to put out a great product that we hope will serve the needs of competitive shooters. Are we perfect? No but we always will try to be and rectify any issue that may arise. We have shipped these (well over 300 so far) all over the world. We still struggle to keep up with new orders. So apparently someone likes us
when you are saying you would shoot the brass through a no turn neck to straighten them out and move the brass where it needs to go,
are you referring to situation where the neck becomes crooked from - a neck up/down operation?
because all of my higher end adg, peterson, lapua has very good concentricity (sub 1 thou) out of the box, so i dont see why you wouldn’t just turn that is it is.
I believe what you are missing is the "concentricity " from the "neck to the body" needs to be dead on for this machine to work for you.
Paul
Acyr
Gold $$ Contributor
If I may chime in. In my experience (see above) Except for Winchester you should be able to turn any of the other quality brands of brass straight out of the box and have a very good result. You will have small neck anomalies due to dents and dings. The biggest reason I recommend turning fired brass (not resized) is case holder fit. Once brass is fired in your chamber it will never be straighter. This will produce the best result.
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