New Body Sizer Die Thread

[timeout]

I just received a friend's 22-250 rifle back from the gunsmith. It was fitted with a factory take off varmint contour barrel. I wanted to fire it and check for proper operation. Here is what I had on hand for handloading equipment in 22-250 caliber: 1. Some brass previously fired in another rifle. 2. A Redding body sizer die. 3. A Redding competition neck sizer die. 4. A Wilson chamber type seating die. 4. A Hornady bump gauge tool.
I removed the firing pin from the bolt and proceeded to chamber a cartridge. The cartridge chambered with more resistance to closing than I like. I measured the length of the cartridge fom base to the shoulder with a Hornady tool in order that I may bump the shoulder back .002". I set up the Redding body sizer die in a press and proceeded slowly with the process to achieve my desired .002" shoulder bump. I worked up little by little until my shell holder had bottomed on the die. The net result being that the dimension from base to shoulder had increased and I still could not bump the shoulder back. At this point, the cartridge WOULD NOT chamber. Now according to the directions that came with the die, the body die should work for "bumping" the shoulder. In a previous Body Sizer Die thread, I read where someone said the body die would not work to bump the shoulder back. I removed about .025" of material from the shell holder surface in order to get the shoulder bumped back for proper chambering into the rifle. I fired the rifle twice and all appears well. I will have a standard full length die to use on Friday.
My question is to those who have used Body Sizer Dies. Was my situation unique, or is it common place that the body sizer die will not allow for bumping the shoulder? I will have more info after laying hands on a standard FL sizer die. Thanks for your help!

 

[CatShooter]

I just received a friend's 22-250 rifle back from the gunsmith. It was fitted with a factory take off varmint contour barrel. I wanted to fire it and check for proper operation. Here is what I had on hand for handloading equipment in 22-250 caliber: 1. Some brass previously fired in another rifle. 2. A Redding body sizer die. 3. A Redding competition neck sizer die. 4. A Wilson chamber type seating die. 4. A Hornady bump gauge tool.
I removed the firing pin from the bolt and proceeded to chamber a cartridge. The cartridge chambered with more resistance to closing than I like. I measured the length of the cartridge fom base to the shoulder with a Hornady tool in order that I may bump the shoulder back .002". I set up the Redding body sizer die in a press and proceeded slowly with the process to achieve my desired .002" shoulder bump. I worked up little by little until my shell holder had bottomed on the die. The net result being that the dimension from base to shoulder had increased and I still could not bump the shoulder back. At this point, the cartridge WOULD NOT chamber. Now according to the directions that came with the die, the body die should work for "bumping" the shoulder. In a previous Body Sizer Die thread, I read where someone said the body die would not work to bump the shoulder back. I removed about .025" of material from the shell holder surface in order to get the shoulder bumped back for proper chambering into the rifle. I fired the rifle twice and all appears well. I will have a standard full length die to use on Friday.
My question is to those who have used Body Sizer Dies. Was my situation unique, or is it common place that the body sizer die will not allow for bumping the shoulder? I will have more info after laying hands on a standard FL sizer die. Thanks for your help!

Your situation is not unique.

A body die is NOT a "bump" die - it is a FL die without a neck section.

In FL sizing, the die walls contact the case long before the shoulder, so the die walls start to squish the case first. The result is that the shoulder moves FORWARD, not back.

That is why your cases would chamber hard at first (before sizing) then not chamber at all, after sizing... you made them longer.

It would have been better if you had fired the cases when they were tight, before you sized them, they would formed to the new chamber and then be easy - I have done this so many times, that I wouldn't even guess how many times.

To bump a case's shoulder back without touching the body or making the shoulder grow first, use a Forster bump die - they do NOT touch the case body walls.

 

[Patch700]

I would start with new brass , and do not do any gross sizing until it is known to be fire formed to that chamber and confirmed by first measuring then confirming the fore and aft numbers.

Is it a common problem you've encountered ? Yes.
Can it be avoided? Yes , by starting with new brass and taking measurements so as you can compare those measurements with fired cases before any gross sizing is done.

The cases you've sized that were once fired in another chamber sound like they will he text book incepent case head separation ones.

By design yes a body die is supposed to be capable of setting back shoulders... But as CatShooter mentioned it comes after the body has been sized due to the die dimensions.

 

[timeout]

Thanks for the quick replies. Glad to know my situation was not unique. I understand the length will grow as a result of the sizing, just mistakenly thought the shoulder would contact sooner, as with a FL sizer die. I guess I pretty much had the misconception that the Body Sizer was a FL sizer witout the neck being touched. Evidently Redding needs to rethink the instruction info sent with the dies. I only wanted to fire the rifle a couple times and did not have any new brass on hand. You are correct, I should have just fired it with the less than desirable fit.

 

[Patch700]

No misconception , the body die IS a FL die with merely the neck area opened up so as not to contact or disturb the neck region....

What you are finding out is that the chamber in this new barrel is a tad different than what the redding die is with respect to the shoulder datum line.

 

[timeout]

We'll try the regular FL die, but my friend will probably buy a Harrell's or Whidden made to specs from brass fired in this chamber. We use those in everything we shoot. Just did not have any availability now.

 

[CatShooter]

I would start with new brass , and do not do any gross sizing until it is known to be fire formed to that chamber and confirmed by first measuring then confirming the fore and aft numbers.

Is it a common problem you've encountered ? Yes.
Can it be avoided? Yes , by starting with new brass and taking measurements so as you can compare those measurements with fired cases before any gross sizing is done.

The cases you've sized that were once fired in another chamber sound like they will he text book incepent case head separation ones.

By design yes a body die is supposed to be capable of setting back shoulders... But as CatShooter mentioned it comes after the body has been sized due to the die dimensions.

I would NOT start with new brass.

First, you should be the master of your cases and case life management.

You will never learn anything if you run and buy new cases every time something feels tight. You should be able to do most everything to make things work the way you want them to...

What happens when you can't get new brass - like two years ago when NOTHING was available for any popular calibres?? You couldn't get 22-250 brass to save your life - - it was not available at ANY price, but you have a bunch of cases that are tight... you don't shoot??

I was given a bunch of Norma .220 Swift cases from a guy on this site - some fool tried to make them into "Improved" .220 Wilson Arrow cases and badly oil dented the shoulders.


The whole bunch were like this...

The cases were also muffin topped and would not chamber in my swift, in spite of having 0.170" (a full 1/6th of an inch) of sloppy headspace

They are now loaded and will be turned backwards into like new .220 Swift cases, with no length growth or stretching, as soon as the God damned snow is gone.

You need to develop your case management skills, and that will never happen if you run and buy new cases every time things are not perfect.

What you are finding out is that the chamber in this new barrel is a tad different than what the redding die is with respect to the shoulder datum line.

All OTR FL dies are very different than any chambers - it is the nature of the "Science"??

Shooters need to know how to manage their available tools.

BTW... Harrels (or other "Kustom" folks), do NOT make dies in normal calibres - Harrels makes kustom dies in 4 calibres - and none of them are 22-250.

 

[Patch700]

It is entirely possible that the body die you were using is out of spec and may need to be sent back .... For what it's worth I don't believe Harrells carries any dies in that caliber but indeed Whidden does.

If the FL die you receive does indeed size the brass appropriately along with alter the shoulder then I would definitely send the body die back for inspection along with an explanatory letter.

Let us know what you find out when the die shows up.

Good luck

 

[CatShooter]

It is entirely possible that the body die you were using is out of spec and may need to be sent back .... For what it's worth I don't believe Harrells carries any dies in that caliber but indeed Whidden does.

If the FL die you receive does indeed size the brass appropriately along with alter the shoulder then I would definitely send the body die back for inspection along with an explanatory letter.

Let us know what you find out when the die shows up.

Good luck

There is no reason to say that the body die is out of "spec".

"Spec" for dies and chambers is actually a wide range of sizes and it allows a lot of leeway.

Very often, things do not work well together, and it is no one's fault.

 

[timeout]

I really had no idea if Harrell's made dies in 22-250 or not. The rifle is not mine and I had not checked. I have had Harrell's make 6BR, Dasher and PPC dies for me in the past.

 

[Patch700]

I would NOT start with new brass.

First, you should be the master of your cases and case life management.

You will never learn anything if you run and buy new cases every time something feels tight. You should be able to do most everything to make things work the way you want them to...

You need to develop your case management skills, and that will never happen if you run and buy new cases every time things are not perfect.

What you are finding out is that the chamber in this new barrel is a tad different than what the redding die is with respect to the shoulder datum line.

All OTR FL dies are very different than any chambers - it is the nature of the "Science"??

Shooters need to know how to manage their available tools.

BTW... Harrels (or other "Kustom" folks), do NOT make dies in normal calibres - Harrels makes kustom dies in 4 calibres - and none of them are 22-250.

I believe the OP was asking if what he was experiencing was normal , and although it shouldn't be it does happen... He was not asking how to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit.

Absolutely we can make things work , the OP did in fact make a modification to his shell holder to remedy the problem so he is not oblivious as to what is going on here.

Again , this is why sometimes sizing brass to "Feel" a certain way when chambering can be counter productive without careful measurements fore and aft. In this particular instance he was not able to size the brass enough initially to get a loose feel when chambering but he was able to deduce what needed be done to get the desired results.

Edit: With respect to your comment about the die not being out of spec... A FL or body die must be able to resize a case below fired case dimensions... So either his chamber is short or the die is incorrect. If the rifle in question was setup with proper gauges and passed then I would say the die was cut too long but that's just me lol.

 

[timeout]

The gunsmith used a go gauge and the scotch tape no go method. I'm betting the chamber is very close to .001" longer than the go gauge. I would have to borrow his go gauge to double check. With his prior work, I don't believe that is necessary. Not that a mistake can't be made, after all we are human. I would guess that even Redding could make a mistake ;D

 

['Freak]

Either the chamber got left a bit short or Redding cut the body die a bit too long. If the Full Length die also behaves as if it’s a little long then it’s likely the chamber was cut a bit too close to the short end of acceptable, and the already trimmed short shell holder that ‘fixed’ the body die ought to work as well with the FL die.

 

[dkhunt14]

I have seen plenty of Redding dies out of spec. I even seen a run of Dasher stamped dies that were 243 WIN. The gunsmith had to send everyone back. It happens more then you would like to think. Matt

 

[XTR]

The simplest solution is probably to shorten your case holder so that the die will size further down and eventually bump the shoulder back, the other option is a Forster bushing bump die that bumps the shoulder and sizes the neck (if you have a bushing in it).

There are three probable causes, the gunsmith cut your chamber at minimum headspace (or maybe even a little less) Not all headspace gauges are perfect, or your die is a little long, or your shell holder is a little thicker. Your smith may mill a couple of thou off of your holder, I've "lapped" them, or more accurately sanded off, a couple of thou from a shell holder before with some 800 grit wet/dry. JUst get a nice flat surface and do it in a figure 8.

 

[Hopkins]

Sinclair International 2014-A catalog description of Redding Body Sizing Dies:
"Body dies are designed to full length resize the case body, bump the shoulder position for proper chambering, but not size the neck at all. They are made without internal parts and are intended for resizing cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firings. After using a body die, the case should be run through the neck die to achieve proper neck tension."

 

[bigedp51]

timeout

If you go to http://www.savageshooters.com/ and do a search you will find plenty of complaints about barrel changes and resized cases that do not fit the chamber. The majority of these complaint deal with GO gauges, scotch tape and chambers setup too short.

Your second problem is cartridge cases fired in another rifles chamber and the "spring back" rate of this brass. I have three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 cases fired by our local police departments. Because of the variety of AR15 rifles used by these police departments I resize all the cases with a small base die and pause for four seconds at the top of the ram stroke.

Pausing at the top of the ram stroke lets the brass know who is the boss and "reduces" the brass spring back rate and the case conforms more to the dimensions of the die.

The blue, red and green dotted lines below tell 95% of the problem and the brass trying to spring back to its fired size after sizing tells the rest.

CatShooter is correct and you can beat the brass you have into submission.

You can also buy new brass and not be bothered but you will miss a learning experience.

And we do live in a plus and minus manufacturing world when it comes to chambers and dies. I have a Lee 223 full length die that sizes the base of the cases smaller than a small base die does and .009 shorter than the GO gauge.

I will leave with some final questions, how do you calibrate scotch tape?
How thick is 3M scotch tape and how thick is Chinese scotch tape?
And does the stickum on the back of the scotch tape compress?

If you look at the SAAMI drawing for your cartridge and chamber you will see that there is .010 between minimum and maximum headspace. And there is .003 between the GO and NO-GO gauges to setup your rifle.

If you are worried about fat chambers and loooong headspace then buy a few .303 Enfield rifles and learn to cope with .016 head clearance.

 

[normmatzen]

I am surprised only one other person mentioned too thick shell holders.
In my brief experiences, different manufacturers shell holders do not all agree in size. I had a similar problem and just "Milled" the shell holder down with emery paper till the cases satisfied my desired amount of set-back.

 

[bigedp51]

I am surprised only one other person mentioned too thick shell holders.
In my brief experiences, different manufacturers shell holders do not all agree in size. I had a similar problem and just "Milled" the shell holder down with emery paper till the cases satisfied my desired amount of set-back.

And we do live in a plus and minus manufacturing world when it comes to chambers and dies. I have a Lee 223 full length die that sizes the base of the cases smaller than a small base die does and .009 shorter than the GO gauge.

a plus and minus manufacturing world

And I have "ONE" shell holder that I lapped .003 shorter for a "custom made" and "tighter" than "normal" chamber that was made in Czechoslovakia. Normally full length dies will over resize the case and push the shoulder back too far.

Methinks the OP has a scotch tape problem.

 

[LHSmith]

When loading for a new rifle, or re-barrelled rifle ALWAYS use new brass. It will save a lot of frustration.