New Berger .224 Bullet

[xswanted]

The .223 Rem AI case provides only a modest increase in capacity over the parental .223 Rem case. My guess is that you'd be asking a LOT from one to get that velocity from a barrel that is 6" shorter AND without killing the primer pockets pretty quickly. You'd certainly also want to have sufficient freebore to load the long bullets.

If you want to see how fast you can tune the 90s with a .223 Rem AI setup and a 24" barrel, I'd suggest starting with brass that has a thicker case head than Lapua that may be able to withstand the increased pressure a little better. You could easily do some preliminary testing and find out there was any chance it would work, but I wouldn't push it if it didn't look like it could get there.

What kind of brass?

I tried the 85.5s in a 22" barrel 223ai and was surprised with velocity but was using 4320 when it happened.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Lake City, Starline, something that has a thicker case head (webbing) than Lapua in the event you'd need to run pressure up near MAX. There are probably a few other brands that would fulfill that requirement. The case head and primer pockets of the AI case are no different than the parental case, so creating additional case volume won't always allow a marked increase in velocity if the pressure with the same powder/bullet in a standard .223 Rem case would have already been the limiting factor.

 

[garandman]

At long last.....

Bullet: 85.5 Berger, seated 1.786 to Ogive (ETA: 224 Valkyrie)
Powder : 24.3 gr AR-Comp
Velocity: 2880 fps. SD: 7.0 ES: 17 fps
Group size: 0.25 - 0.55" at 100 yds, holding true to 400 yds(far as I've shot it)
Gun: Origin bolt action, 24"s barrell (suppressed)
Scope: NF 8-32x

And the 80.5 Berger shoots a hair better.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

garandmand, what cartridge is that?

 

[garandman]

garandmand, what cartridge is that?

224 Valkyrie. Took me 750 rounds to find a 80.5 and a 85.5 load. But DANG! they shoot well now, finally.

 

[xswanted]

I tested these on Tuesday at 1000 yards, 223 Palma rifle 30”, 1x7 twist and a healthy dose of H4895. .169 freebore. I was getting 2930-2980 on a lab radar and just over 1400fps at the target on a shot marker. Accuracy seemed ok, I just shot two different powder charges and jumped both 30 thousandths. Seemed mostly on call, only had about 3 minutes of wind. I need to work on it to see if it will shoot.

What powder charge are you using?

 

[LitLBoy]

Try +.005

 

[Michael C]

I shot 24.5 and 24.8g H4895.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I shot 24.5 and 24.8g H4895.

That is a LOT of H4895 for a .223 Rem case. How is the brass life? Solely using your velocity numbers plugged into the formula for kinetic energy, I'd guess those loads would be similar pressure to running 90 VLDs at ~2850 to 2900 fps from the same chamber and a 30" barrel. For anyone not familiar with running heavy bullets in the .223 Rem, I would not recommend jumping right in with that much H4895 and the 85.5s. Work up slowly and see whether your setup will allow you to go that high.

 

[xswanted]

That is a LOT of H4895 for a .223 Rem case. How is the brass life? Solely using your velocity numbers plugged into the formula for kinetic energy, I'd guess those loads would be similar pressure to running 90 VLDs at ~2850 to 2900 fps from the same chamber and a 30" barrel. For anyone not familiar with running heavy bullets in the .223 Rem, I would not recommend jumping right in with that much H4895 and the 85.5s. Work up slowly and see whether your setup will allow you to go that high.

I’m running 24.5 in a 223AI so I was a little surprised by that charge in a standard case as well but to each their own.

25.0 was over pressure for sure. No sticky bolt but an ejector mark on 3 of 5 cases.

24.7 left no ejector marks.

24.5 shot the same as both prior loads and lost minimal speed from the 24.7 load.

I measure unfired brass from the same lot I work loads up on at the case head and then measure my first string of loads after firing to determine if the load I’m using is going to be hard on brass. I don’t know if it’s scientific by any means but it’s proven to be a win for me on all the rifles I’ve done it on.

Average case head expansion on the 25.0 grain load was .0004 across 5 cases. 24.5 was .0002 average across the 5 cases. Ive found that if I have .0015 or more, primer pockets become loose quite quickly.


Brass life through load development and some playing around has been good thus far.

Im getting 2890-2900 depending on temps when I’m shooting.

24” Barrel
7 twist
85.5 Berger
24.5 H4895
2.500 OAL
Gun was chambered off a dummy round I sent to the Smith with the 85.5 seated at 2.510 so I’m unsure of the exact freebore used.

 

[OldManTA]

This is an update to my last post. As stated previously I had tested a load of the 85.5 in front of 25.5 grains N140, CCI450 and Winchester 223 Rem brass. The average MV was 2940 for that small sample. I attended my first Palma match this year. Using the JBM Ballistics data I was off about five minutes of elevation so I should have come up 24 minutes from 100 yds instead of 19 for 800 yds. I was recovering from foot surgery and a subsequent leg injury so my shooting was not remarkable. However, going from 800 to 900 required one notch elevation on the Riles front sight. I was able to hold 10 ring elevation with the load at 900. Moving to 1000 yds I went down another notch on the front sight but had some problems. Once on paper I was able to get nine shots off before the front sight came loose and I was done. Those 9 shots maintained an X ring elevation. The average velocity shown on the electronic display was about 1515 FPS. We did not have much wind but there were a few gusts. The 85.5 seems to fly a little inside the Sierra 155 Palma bullet. I’ll post more information about the velocities at 800 and 900. I hope the above will be useful.
Tom Alves
Prior to changing to the CCI450 I was using the BR primer and had problems with carbon deposits. Once I changed to the 450’s the carbon residue went away??

 

[OldManTA]

Here are the average velocities shown on the Silver Mountain targets:
1796 FPS @ 800
1646 FPS @ 900
1502 FPS @1000
TA

 

[CADDIE5]

So has there been a consensus on 223 rem 85.5Ber hybrid for what 22CF diameter 0.218 or 0.219? Will need to order a new Brux heavy palma barrel for next season FTR. Thinking a 7 twist barrel with one of the new 85.5 hybrid reamers. Presently have a 7 twist 30"Brux hvy Palma bbl on my Barnard. Thanks.

 

[XTR]

So has there been a consensus on 223 rem 85.5Ber hybrid for what 22CF diameter 0.218 or 0.219? Will need to order a new Brux heavy palma barrel for next season FTR. Thinking a 7 twist barrel with one of the new 85.5 hybrid reamers. Presently have a 7 twist 30"Brux hvy Palma bbl on my Barnard. Thanks.

I talked with Brux a couple of weeks ago and they told me that they won’t make a .219 in a fast twist; I forget what the cut off was for a .219 but it was slower than 1:7. They told me 1:7 is a .218

 

[OldManTA]

I talked with Brux a couple of weeks ago and they told me that they won’t make a .219 in a fast twist; I forget what the cut off was for a .219 but it was slower than 1:7. They told me 1:7 is a .218

I am using a .218, 7 twist, 30 inch Kreiger barrel and an average MV of 2940. That is a little over 300K RPM with no lost bullets thus far. What will summer heat do???
TomAlves

 

[Ned Ludd]

I am using a .218, 7 twist, 30 inch Kreiger barrel and an average MV of 2940. That is a little over 300K RPM with no lost bullets thus far. What will summer heat do???
TomAlves

Only time will tell. If your target fails to go down after a shot, look for the lingering little white puff of smoke; it dissipates pretty quickly. With its shorter bearing surface, the 85.5 should be more resistant to jacket failures than the 90 VLDs. Having said that, I have never lost a 90 VLD @ ~2850 fps out of a 7.0-twist barrel, even on days when it was 95+ degrees. Most of my bullet blow-ups seem to occur at least 45 to 50 rounds into a match or practice session. Hopefully, the 85.5s will withstand the described conditions.

If not, with one of my rifles having a 6.8-twist barrel that blows up 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs, if I run a couple wet patches of Kroil through the barrel at a match after finishing the first and second strings (i.e. while the barrel is still hot), followed by a couple dry patches. I haven't lost any bullets when using this process; however, blowups aren't that frequent with that particular rifle, anyhow. Presumably, the Kroil removes most of the carbon fouling, but not any copper, and re-lubricates the barrel temporarily. The first sighter afterward may be a tick low/slow, but not so bad that it's completely devoid of useful information. The 2nd sighter afterward is right in there. It's kind of a nuisance to do at a match, but it only takes a few minutes.

 

[gstewart]

Is there any evidence for 5R rifling being forgiving for blow ups?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Is there any evidence for 5R rifling being forgiving for blow ups?

I'm not sure what a typical shooter could do that would constitute "evidence", other than record the number of shots and/or jacket failures. It has certainly been postulated that 5R rifling may be easier on jackets, but you'd probably need to talk to a barrel manufacturer to find out what kind of experiments they might have done to validate 5R rifling above and beyond simply recording numbers, which the average shooter is not usually equipped to carry out. I have 5R barrels on all my competition rifles, including the .223s, so I can't really state with any certainty how a different land/groove configuration might have behaved. FWIW - only jacket failures I have experienced have been with a 6.8-twist 5R barrel.

 

[Evan]

My 5R 1:7 twist Bartlein 22BR blows just about anything and everything up after three shots in a row. My opinion: 5R won't save you, and unless you are locked in to the 22 caliber by your competitive class (223 in FTR), then I'd avoid the 90s. I rolled the dice and decided to try it. My next 22BR barrel will be a 1:8 and I'll shoot the 80s because it's no fun when the bullets don't make it to the target and the risk is high.

 

[OldManTA]

Here are the average velocities shown on the Silver Mountain targets:
1796 FPS @ 800
1646 FPS @ 900
1502 FPS @1000
TA

This an update from my last post. I have been developing a load and recently shot two matches using the same Winchester cartridge cases for a total of three loadings. At the second loading I started having slight extraction "stickiness" like the cases should have been sized with a small base die. At the third reloading the primer pockets still seemed reasonably tight. However, during the last match the stickiness during extraction was more universal and pronounced. The last match was a 3 X 500 yard and during the last string of the last match I had a primer come out upon extraction. Rather than risk damaging the action I quit. My conclusion; Winchester brass is not up to the application. I will transition to Lapua. Other, more accomplished competitors are using Lapua brass with similar load parameters and performance and getting better case life.
Thus far, from all reports I have seen, including my own experience, this bullet promises to be very successful in long range prone and Palma competition. However, in order to achieve muzzle velocities in the 2900+ range high pressure loads are required.
Tom Alves
I have purchased a small base form die and primer pocket gage to more closely control my cases.