a question from a newbie long range shooter. i have been doing a lot of shooting at 100 yards with my Criterion barreled .308. it is shooting 1/3 to 1/4 moa pretty consistently with 175 SMK's or Berger 168 Hybrids. question is, given a zero wind situation, how much of this excellent accuracy at 100 yds is translatable to performance accuracy at 600 yds in this no wind situation?
new at long range precision shooting
- Thread starter swadiver
- Start date
If you have a REALLY good load (let's assume you do) and you are in fact shooting between 1/3rd and 1/4 m.o.a. at 100 yards consistently. On a day with zero or almost no wind, with cloud cover to eliminate heat waves, you could do better! Once that bullet is "asleep" with very little in the way to upset it's flight, you MIGHT shoot well inside 1.5".. It is VERY difficult to do, and you will probably NOT do it consistently, but it IS possible! I have seen 1.5 and LESS groups shot at 600 yards, from excellent shooters, shooting excellent rifles, with excellent loads, in excellent conditions>> I HAVE SEEN IT!!
^^^^ This is correct... I have seen MANY MORE TIMES THAN NOT, groups doing VERY well at 100 yards and fail at 600. I am a believer in "testing" what you THINK might be a great load at 100 yards, either 600 or 1000 yards. I have seen groups fail at 600 and or 1000 that were GREAT even at 300 yards. But I have NEVER seen one that was great at 1000 yards fail closer in!!
As you go out to distance shooting, an additional variable that affects accuracy is the velocity variation in your load. That won't necessarily show up at 100 yards but can add significant vertical variation at 600 yards and beyond. Bullets traveling at different speeds will drop different amounts at distance.
Imagine you had a 40fps variation in your velocity of your accurate 175 SMK round. That would be an extra 3-4 inches of vertical dispersion at 600 yards and well over a foot of vertical dispersion at 1000 yards.
Regardless of what accuracy you get at 100yd (and yours is not bad at all), it's safe to say it won't get better as distances increase.
I've read that a national HP champion once described a good rifle as being a 1/2MOA gun at 100yd, and a 2MOA gun at 1000yd. After several years of shooting .260 (a superior cartridge at 1000yd to the .308, and the same one as this champion was often using to win) at 1000yd, I'd say that he made a realistic comment.
Much of this is, as above, partly because the distance accentuates issues like velocity (and other) variations, and also partly that the wind grabs points away from everyone. Wind skills are a large part of why he was the champion. There's no getting around that.
Simply put, maintaining excellent performance just gets harder as the distances increase.
This is not a reason for despair. These issues affect everyone about the same. It's less about performance and more about expectations.
Greg
I've read that a national HP champion once described a good rifle as being a 1/2MOA gun at 100yd, and a 2MOA gun at 1000yd. After several years of shooting .260 (a superior cartridge at 1000yd to the .308, and the same one as this champion was often using to win) at 1000yd, I'd say that he made a realistic comment.
Much of this is, as above, partly because the distance accentuates issues like velocity (and other) variations, and also partly that the wind grabs points away from everyone. Wind skills are a large part of why he was the champion. There's no getting around that.
Simply put, maintaining excellent performance just gets harder as the distances increase.
This is not a reason for despair. These issues affect everyone about the same. It's less about performance and more about expectations.
Greg
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dragman
Site $$ Sponsor
It's gun equipment and shooter from my experience.
I have done development in both directions and this is what I have found: if I can get it to shoot 1/4 consistently @ 100 yards it will shoot at least 10" @ 1000.
If you get a load shooting say 5" @ 1000 it will shoot under 1" @ 100.
So if you wanna shoot long then spend your time tweeking at that distance and don't worry about the short, but if you cant test out long just get the groups as small as possible and the ES as low as possible and pray.
I have done development in both directions and this is what I have found: if I can get it to shoot 1/4 consistently @ 100 yards it will shoot at least 10" @ 1000.
If you get a load shooting say 5" @ 1000 it will shoot under 1" @ 100.
So if you wanna shoot long then spend your time tweeking at that distance and don't worry about the short, but if you cant test out long just get the groups as small as possible and the ES as low as possible and pray.
Thanks for the responses. Biggest issue for me is the closest 600 yd plus range is a 3.5 hr one way drive away. I am sure the only way to get good at shooting at long ranges is........to shoot at long ranges. I am going to try to get out to this range more often and start by using most best 100 yd loads and the go from there. Also on advise, I am going to try to develop a good load with Berger 185 Juggernauts
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Not necessarily. Wind effects are largely a product of BC.
Just as Competitors use higher BC to beat the wind, learners can use lower BC (ala 22LR) at shorter distances to get effects similar to higher BC's at longer distances.
If you doubt this, try shooting a 22LR at 150-200yd on a breezy day. This is also a good time to lean about wind flags. I use surveyor's tape on push-in sticks. (Hint: winds closer to the shooter have greater effect. Use the .22LR to prove this to yourself.)
Another approach is to use .223 at intermediate distances. With .22LR being exorbitantly priced unobtanium, the .223 has become my training round, practicing at 250yd. If you want to learn the wind, shoot in it a lot, and remember the part about avoiding high BC bullets.).
Greg
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All this theory talk is of little use. Accuracy is not linear. Sorry. You shoot 1/2 MOA at 100, you may very well not be able to hit a 24" plate at 1,000 yards. Variance in velocity as Sheldon mentioned peeks it's ugly head. Variance in neck tension.
Wind alone is the single biggest issue. I'm not talking about opening up groups, I'm talking about missing target by feet. Flaws in your technique, trigger pull, recoil management, will all cause misses at distance.
Reading online is of little use. Find a 1,000 yard range and see how many times out of ten you can hit a TWO MOA target with your 1/4-3/4" 100 yard 308 load. It will open up a whole bunch of new thoughts. 600 yards isn't long range, it's medium at best.
I know it's not easy, but try to find a 1,000 yard range within a day's drive if nothing else. It will be fun, and open your eyes. Buy some Brian Litz books. But be warned, it's costly and addictive.
Dan
NC
Wind alone is the single biggest issue. I'm not talking about opening up groups, I'm talking about missing target by feet. Flaws in your technique, trigger pull, recoil management, will all cause misses at distance.
Reading online is of little use. Find a 1,000 yard range and see how many times out of ten you can hit a TWO MOA target with your 1/4-3/4" 100 yard 308 load. It will open up a whole bunch of new thoughts. 600 yards isn't long range, it's medium at best.
I know it's not easy, but try to find a 1,000 yard range within a day's drive if nothing else. It will be fun, and open your eyes. Buy some Brian Litz books. But be warned, it's costly and addictive.
Dan
NC
I'm new to long range shooting too. You gentlemen sound spot on with your advice. What would you recommend for an rifle scope? - Jay
I feel for you, the 1000 range I go to is 235 miles away. Don't get there much but really enjoy it when I do.
6MMsteve
Gold $$ Contributor
NF 12x42x56 get one used for fair price 1000 to 1150 or new for 1450
for steel less power is ok I guess, let the pros on here tell you glass is very important even at 100yds splitting a bullet hole up matters
thanks for all the inputs.
well, a year and half or so later, i am fully immersed in F/TR competitions. I am now shooting with two Bartlein .308 barreled rifles throated for 200 gr Bergers and shoot a real or a practice match at 600 yds every month. got recruited on to an F/TR team and we have been shooting a number of matches together. we just came back from Butner, North Carolina, shooting 1000 yd individual and team matches. i managed to come in second in the individuals and the team also came in second. this was my first 1000 yd match. this has all been in preparation for going to the Canadian Nationals and the World F Class competitions in Ottawa in August. will shoot individual and team.
it's been a ton of fun and i have learned a bunch with more to learn. had some great mentors along the way and i really enjoy the team shooting.
well, a year and half or so later, i am fully immersed in F/TR competitions. I am now shooting with two Bartlein .308 barreled rifles throated for 200 gr Bergers and shoot a real or a practice match at 600 yds every month. got recruited on to an F/TR team and we have been shooting a number of matches together. we just came back from Butner, North Carolina, shooting 1000 yd individual and team matches. i managed to come in second in the individuals and the team also came in second. this was my first 1000 yd match. this has all been in preparation for going to the Canadian Nationals and the World F Class competitions in Ottawa in August. will shoot individual and team.
it's been a ton of fun and i have learned a bunch with more to learn. had some great mentors along the way and i really enjoy the team shooting.
DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
I think if your case prep and do annealing for the most consist ammo possible and have low SD and ES. The ammo should be fine out to 600 or 1000 yards. I developed my 308 load (44.5 Varget and 175 SMK) at 100 and had no problem hitting my spotter consistently at 1000 yards.
As far as glass. I have used a 10 power at 1000 and not felt at a disadvantage. Heck it has M3 turrets(1 MOA clicks) and did just fine. I also have used 16 and 24 power scopes t 500 yard matches. I think clear glass and good adjustable turrets are all you need.More power can be good but noting beats clarity. Just my 2 centavos.
As far as glass. I have used a 10 power at 1000 and not felt at a disadvantage. Heck it has M3 turrets(1 MOA clicks) and did just fine. I also have used 16 and 24 power scopes t 500 yard matches. I think clear glass and good adjustable turrets are all you need.More power can be good but noting beats clarity. Just my 2 centavos.
Never case prepped any 308 Win ammo for long range accuracy. Brand new cases with metered charges with a 3/10ths grain spread shoot under MOA at 1000.
Here's what 20 shots did at 800 yards with unprepped cases and IMR4895 with 1/10th grain charge spread shooting Sierra's first lot of 155's:
Shots 1 and 2 were from a clean, cold barrel. Muzzle velocity goes up 10 to 20 fps as barrel goes from clean to gently fouled.
Yes, groups open with range; examples:
50 fps velocity spread causes 1/10th inch/MOA vertical stringing at 100 yards. Its 20 inches/2MOA at 1000.
Wind drift the first third of target range drifts bullets much more than the last third.
Winds above the line of sight at highest trajectory point can be 50% faster than winds in the line of sight.
Bullets with larger spreads in BC string vertically more than those with low spreads.
Here's what 20 shots did at 800 yards with unprepped cases and IMR4895 with 1/10th grain charge spread shooting Sierra's first lot of 155's:
Shots 1 and 2 were from a clean, cold barrel. Muzzle velocity goes up 10 to 20 fps as barrel goes from clean to gently fouled.
Yes, groups open with range; examples:
50 fps velocity spread causes 1/10th inch/MOA vertical stringing at 100 yards. Its 20 inches/2MOA at 1000.
Wind drift the first third of target range drifts bullets much more than the last third.
Winds above the line of sight at highest trajectory point can be 50% faster than winds in the line of sight.
Bullets with larger spreads in BC string vertically more than those with low spreads.
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The closet 600 yard range is almost 2 hours away. I look for land where I have hunting privileges and use a finely picked out area that I can shoot when the neighbors are at work during the day. I look at the wind forecast and plan accordingly. Granted, it's not a 600 yard range that I can shoot from sunrise to sunset, but I manage to get load development done this way.
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