New .224 Matchking...
- Thread starter BoilerUP
- Start date
Sorry I'm happily married.1:7 30 inch Bartlein 5r, ~50°F, 850asl, 5ft 11in, 230, long walks on the beach, sunsets and shooting.
Could someone with a couple of these please post its measurements. Will it fit in a 224V and stay within STANAG length?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Have you ever loaded 90VLDs? This bullet it longer, with more bearing surface. A 90VLD seated in a .169 freebore with the bearing surface just above the neck shoulder junction is something like 2.650, the mag length on a 556 is 2.260, so you are talking about nearly half an inch. So, only if you seat them sitting just above the primer.
You might be able to get it to work in a 224AR (6.5Grendal necked to 224), it's the shorter of the cases. I think the 224V case would be to long.
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Yes. That's what I'm trying to get a comparison against. I don't have a 95 to measure. From what the tech at Sierra said the 95 is 1.273" (that may be wrong per bulletman) and a 90 VLD is 1.254" but the SMK appears to have much more bearing surface which result in possibly less ogive length. Like I said I don't have any to actually measure that's why I'm asking y'all.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
My measurements (Average of 10 bullets; nose and boattail measurements were calculated by subtraction, not measured directly):
Weight - 95.08 gr +/- .059
OAL - 1.2684" +/- .0051 (note - this is a pointed bullet OAL avg.)
BTO - 0.6001" +/- .0009
Bearing Surface - 0.4709" +/- .0020
Nose - 0.6683"
Boattail - 0.1292"
BT Angle - 7.5 degrees (both angle measurement and QL produce the same value)
My rifle's lead/throat is significantly longer than cut by the .223 Rem ISSF (0.1669"); with bullets seated at ~.020" off the lands, average COAL is 2.626" and the boattail/bearing surface junction is slightly below the case neck/shoulder junction.
As I noted previously in this thread, a much longer lead/throat than cut by the Rem ISSF reamer will be needed with this bullet in order to seat it optimally. I would estimate COAL for optimally seated bullets to be perhaps as long as 2.68" to 2.72"; where I personally would define "optimally seated" for a .223 Rem case as having the boattail/bearing surface junction of a seated bullet located somewhere above the case neck/shoulder junction, but not more than halfway out the neck.
Due to having a slightly shorter nose, COAL for loaded 95 SMK is slightly less (~.044") than for a Berger 90 VLD seated at the same CBTO length (i.e. same estimated amount of jump). Note that the measured dimensions for the 95 SMK are totally different than for Sierra's 90 gr offering. As Bulletman noted, this is a completely different design; the ogive radius is way different, the boattail, bearing surface, and nose lengths are different, and the boattail angle appears to be different.
In my somewhat (marginally) educated opinion (I have only played around with this bullet for a couple weeks at this point), to get the most out of the 95 SMKs in a .223 Rem case will require a very long throat and a barrel length of at least 31"-32" in order to hit the next higher node without killing the brass in one or two firings. If you have (or build) such a setup, the advantage of the 95 SMK over other 90 gr offerings will be noticeable at 600 yd, although the real difference will show up even better at 1000 yd, with the assumption of equal loading precision. If you try to use an existing rifle chambered with the .223 Rem ISSF reamer and a 30" (or less) barrel length, you probably won't see a huge difference at 600 yd. This is because without a much longer throat, the bullet will be sunk pretty far down into the case, thereby lessening usable case volume and increasing pressure. When combined with the fact that trying to hit the equivalent accuracy node to the 90s running at 2800-2850 fps with a 95 gr bullet is going to be very hard on brass, initial testing suggests that most setups already optimized for 90 gr (or less) bullets will not allow the 95s to be run at their maximum potential. That being said, I am very pleased at how well these bullets have performed initially in my hands. Even if they end up more or less a break-even with the 90s for the reasons mentioned, I would be very happy to use either one in F-TR matches.
Weight - 95.08 gr +/- .059
OAL - 1.2684" +/- .0051 (note - this is a pointed bullet OAL avg.)
BTO - 0.6001" +/- .0009
Bearing Surface - 0.4709" +/- .0020
Nose - 0.6683"
Boattail - 0.1292"
BT Angle - 7.5 degrees (both angle measurement and QL produce the same value)
My rifle's lead/throat is significantly longer than cut by the .223 Rem ISSF (0.1669"); with bullets seated at ~.020" off the lands, average COAL is 2.626" and the boattail/bearing surface junction is slightly below the case neck/shoulder junction.
As I noted previously in this thread, a much longer lead/throat than cut by the Rem ISSF reamer will be needed with this bullet in order to seat it optimally. I would estimate COAL for optimally seated bullets to be perhaps as long as 2.68" to 2.72"; where I personally would define "optimally seated" for a .223 Rem case as having the boattail/bearing surface junction of a seated bullet located somewhere above the case neck/shoulder junction, but not more than halfway out the neck.
Due to having a slightly shorter nose, COAL for loaded 95 SMK is slightly less (~.044") than for a Berger 90 VLD seated at the same CBTO length (i.e. same estimated amount of jump). Note that the measured dimensions for the 95 SMK are totally different than for Sierra's 90 gr offering. As Bulletman noted, this is a completely different design; the ogive radius is way different, the boattail, bearing surface, and nose lengths are different, and the boattail angle appears to be different.
In my somewhat (marginally) educated opinion (I have only played around with this bullet for a couple weeks at this point), to get the most out of the 95 SMKs in a .223 Rem case will require a very long throat and a barrel length of at least 31"-32" in order to hit the next higher node without killing the brass in one or two firings. If you have (or build) such a setup, the advantage of the 95 SMK over other 90 gr offerings will be noticeable at 600 yd, although the real difference will show up even better at 1000 yd, with the assumption of equal loading precision. If you try to use an existing rifle chambered with the .223 Rem ISSF reamer and a 30" (or less) barrel length, you probably won't see a huge difference at 600 yd. This is because without a much longer throat, the bullet will be sunk pretty far down into the case, thereby lessening usable case volume and increasing pressure. When combined with the fact that trying to hit the equivalent accuracy node to the 90s running at 2800-2850 fps with a 95 gr bullet is going to be very hard on brass, initial testing suggests that most setups already optimized for 90 gr (or less) bullets will not allow the 95s to be run at their maximum potential. That being said, I am very pleased at how well these bullets have performed initially in my hands. Even if they end up more or less a break-even with the 90s for the reasons mentioned, I would be very happy to use either one in F-TR matches.
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Thank you gstaylorg. Considerably longer BS and slightly shorter nose compared to the vld. That's a very short BT, was anticipating at least .175. Thank you again sir.
Much thanks for the comparison. My apologies if I'm not understanding but the bto is longer on the vld?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Brad's numbers represent CBTO of loaded rounds. Bullet BTO on the 95 SMK is longer than the 90 VLD by almost .070". Most of the difference is due to the long bearing surface of the 95 SMK; the boattail lengths of the two bullets differ by only about .007". Brad seated the two bullets at "touching" in the same rifle with a long throat. Forget the two relative CBTO numerical values; they don't tell the whole story with two completely different bullets. For a much better idea of the long freebore necessary for the 95 SMK, take a closer look at where the boattail/bearing surfaces of the two bullets are located relative to the neck/shoulder junction. I probably wouldn't try to seat a 90 VLD any farther out in the neck than is shown in Brad's image at left. In contrast, I probably wouldn't choose to seat a 95 SMK any deeper in the neck than shown in the image at right. Brad's point was that even with a rifle throated extremely long for the 90 VLD, the 95 SMK is still sunk much farther down in the neck than would be optimal.
The PTG .223 Rem ISSF reamer commonly used with 90 VLDs cuts 0.169" freebore. That is just about perfect for the 90 VLD, if you're seating them about .010" or so into the lands as the folks that worked with Kiff to design that reamer were doing. In contrast, if you seat the 90 VLDs from .020" to .025" off the lands, a 0.169" freebore throat means the boattail/bearing surface junction is very close to the neck/shoulder junction. A freebore of 0.169" is simply not optimal in that event; you're giving up way more usable case volume than necessary. That doesn't mean you can't develop a very precise load with it...you can. Rather, it means you'll be running higher than necessary pressure to reach a given velocity. In the .223 Rem case, running the 90s at 2820 to 2850 fps is already pretty hard on brass. Running them at those velocities with the bullet seated as much as .030" to .035" deeper in the case to maintain a specific seating depth relationship to the lands can be the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of brass life. Running lower pressure (slower) loads will absolutely alleviate that problem and as I and others have mentioned, the 95 SMK seems to be shooting with outstanding precision. However, the problem you will eventually run into is that if you have to lower the pressure/velocity more than a certain amount to alleviate the poor brass life, you're effectively giving up the intrinsic BC gain/increase (i.e. advantage) of the bullet.
I'm not sure how accurately you are able to translate throat/freebore lengths between the .223 Rem and other cases you may be interested in. What I can tell you is that you'll want a minimum 0.250" to 0.275" freebore if seating bullets .005" to .010" into the lands in a .223 Rem, possibly 0.300" (or more) if seating farther off the lands. If you can't directly translate those .223 Rem freebore dimensions to some other cartridge, your best bet is to buy or beg some of the 95s and make some dummy rounds. It's possibly the only way you'll get measurements you can have confidence in. Obviously buying bullets costs money, but if you find the 95s won't work out for you, I seriously doubt you'll have any problem unloading the remainder. My initial impression is that this is a very good design and will likely be much in demand.
The PTG .223 Rem ISSF reamer commonly used with 90 VLDs cuts 0.169" freebore. That is just about perfect for the 90 VLD, if you're seating them about .010" or so into the lands as the folks that worked with Kiff to design that reamer were doing. In contrast, if you seat the 90 VLDs from .020" to .025" off the lands, a 0.169" freebore throat means the boattail/bearing surface junction is very close to the neck/shoulder junction. A freebore of 0.169" is simply not optimal in that event; you're giving up way more usable case volume than necessary. That doesn't mean you can't develop a very precise load with it...you can. Rather, it means you'll be running higher than necessary pressure to reach a given velocity. In the .223 Rem case, running the 90s at 2820 to 2850 fps is already pretty hard on brass. Running them at those velocities with the bullet seated as much as .030" to .035" deeper in the case to maintain a specific seating depth relationship to the lands can be the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of brass life. Running lower pressure (slower) loads will absolutely alleviate that problem and as I and others have mentioned, the 95 SMK seems to be shooting with outstanding precision. However, the problem you will eventually run into is that if you have to lower the pressure/velocity more than a certain amount to alleviate the poor brass life, you're effectively giving up the intrinsic BC gain/increase (i.e. advantage) of the bullet.
I'm not sure how accurately you are able to translate throat/freebore lengths between the .223 Rem and other cases you may be interested in. What I can tell you is that you'll want a minimum 0.250" to 0.275" freebore if seating bullets .005" to .010" into the lands in a .223 Rem, possibly 0.300" (or more) if seating farther off the lands. If you can't directly translate those .223 Rem freebore dimensions to some other cartridge, your best bet is to buy or beg some of the 95s and make some dummy rounds. It's possibly the only way you'll get measurements you can have confidence in. Obviously buying bullets costs money, but if you find the 95s won't work out for you, I seriously doubt you'll have any problem unloading the remainder. My initial impression is that this is a very good design and will likely be much in demand.
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What I figured but didn't want to assume. Thank you again for your experience. Sierra is suppose to be sending me a couple samples for dummies.
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Yep, I'm too long for the Berger and too short for the Sierra. Another point/question, my gun went from shooting really good to not great toward the end of last season. Last night I noticed when seating a bullets long (shined with steel wool) and checking for land marks, then seating deeper, repeating until land marks were gone that I have uneven throat erosion. I had 5 hard land marks then seated .010 deeper and had 3 faint marks and two hard marks. Seated deeper and only had 2 faint marks. 1600-1700 rounds on the barrel which is right where my last barrel started to go.
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
gstaylorg, just received the samples and these are considerably longer than what you posted. The average of the five I got is 1.304". They all have uniform tips.
1911mag
Gold $$ Contributor
Testing last 2 weekends and found a sweet spot in a 1:7 , .169 freebore, barrel 30” , problem being like mentioned before is velocity gave up too much. Avg was 2700 FPS and shooting Bergers 90vld at 2820 now. So anyone wanting some 95’s message me. Have about 440 left for a good home. Had to try at least.
Wouldn't mind 50 of them. Let me know what the sticker is on 50 with shipping. Thanks
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Lot #? According to Sierra, it's the first 9 digits of the number above the bar code on the little white sticker. If it's the same Lot # I have, PM me what ya want for the remainder.
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