New 21st Century Shooting Hydraulic Arbor Press
- Thread starter rxs0
- Start date
This looks like a great unit but I would like to play devils advocate here if I might.
I'm surprised at the enthusiasm for this unit considering that the K&M unit has been around for a while and people have a lot of mixed opinions on it. I don't understand what is being perceived as superior here?
Props to 21st century for being active in this community and answering questions about this. It is great that they have taken the time to show how it works in a video... But I mean, come on.... If I go watch a Hornady video, according to them they make the best dies and most accurate reloading gear around... lol . Opinions will certainly differ on that. If I understand correctly 21st Century Shooting is claiming that they have proved that it helps with velocity spreads because of the direct correlation between the measured seating pressure and velocity? Perhaps they would be willing to take the time to show us some rounds loaded up on the press with different recorded pressure levels and then shoot them over a chronograph on video to document the advantage? If i could see believable proof I would order one in a heart beat and believe me I hope it does what they say because i would love to buy one. Respectfully - Justin
I'm surprised at the enthusiasm for this unit considering that the K&M unit has been around for a while and people have a lot of mixed opinions on it. I don't understand what is being perceived as superior here?
Props to 21st century for being active in this community and answering questions about this. It is great that they have taken the time to show how it works in a video... But I mean, come on.... If I go watch a Hornady video, according to them they make the best dies and most accurate reloading gear around... lol . Opinions will certainly differ on that. If I understand correctly 21st Century Shooting is claiming that they have proved that it helps with velocity spreads because of the direct correlation between the measured seating pressure and velocity? Perhaps they would be willing to take the time to show us some rounds loaded up on the press with different recorded pressure levels and then shoot them over a chronograph on video to document the advantage? If i could see believable proof I would order one in a heart beat and believe me I hope it does what they say because i would love to buy one. Respectfully - Justin
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Justin, It will do what they say. I have proven it with my K&M. What you are measuring is seating friction, not neck tension. Its my opinion that neck tension is what matters not seating friction, as I believe neck expands to release the bullet, the bullet doesnt slip out of the neck. But if the internal finish of the necks are consistant seating friction should correlate with neck tension to a point. If you sort by this measurement, you will reduce your vertical at long range. I agree with you that I do not see how this tool with do anything the K&M doesnt. The bellville washer setup K&M uses works very well, and is very repeatable. But it is cool. 
21shooter
Site $$ Sponsor
Hi Justin,
I designed and built the Hydro Bullet Seater, to help me understand what is going on when the bullet is pushed in the mouth of the case. With this the reloader will gather reliable and accurate data.
If we were on the mound or bench competing, my confidence in the ammo, now gives me an advantage.
Thanks, John
I designed and built the Hydro Bullet Seater, to help me understand what is going on when the bullet is pushed in the mouth of the case. With this the reloader will gather reliable and accurate data.
If we were on the mound or bench competing, my confidence in the ammo, now gives me an advantage.
Thanks, John
hey zfastmalibu. I have the k&m tool also but i have had a tough time discerning differences... I have however yet to take my measured neck tension (or neck friction as it might be) and note down the numbers and then shoot and document the velocities over a chronograph and see how they correlate. I do have a chronograph. Perhaps it is time for me to get my science on? Anyways I'm not saying it doesn't work... I just like to have the documented numbers to see the proof. Perhaps you have done all that?
Hey 21st century. It looks like a very nice press. I'm not one to pass up on the latest technology that I might use to increase the quality of my ammunition and I have a few of your products and I find that they are very high quality so thank you for that. If you get a chance I would love to see some of your data sometime. - Justin
Hey 21st century. It looks like a very nice press. I'm not one to pass up on the latest technology that I might use to increase the quality of my ammunition and I have a few of your products and I find that they are very high quality so thank you for that. If you get a chance I would love to see some of your data sometime. - Justin
zfastmalibu is 100% correct in this.
Friction does not directly correlate with grip(tension).
Seating force amounts to a general sense of tension, just as the indicated K&M, or Shooting Software's 'LoadForce' systems have provided.
But this also can and does fail tests with neck friction variance and speed of seating.
However, while we don't gain as much with indirect measurements as actual measurements, seating force matching helps in a similar way that meplat trimming helps(overall).
Friction does not directly correlate with grip(tension).
Seating force amounts to a general sense of tension, just as the indicated K&M, or Shooting Software's 'LoadForce' systems have provided.
But this also can and does fail tests with neck friction variance and speed of seating.
However, while we don't gain as much with indirect measurements as actual measurements, seating force matching helps in a similar way that meplat trimming helps(overall).
21shooter
Site $$ Sponsor
Hi, Our numbers reveal much (hard earned) Info,But I will tell
You.....With expermenting with neck tension you will find
what your gun likes.
Our hi spread E.S. was 47 before we used the new hydro press
We were able to get this down to 8E.S. With sorting faborable
PSI
This new press will tell You what you need to know..
Thanks, John
You.....With expermenting with neck tension you will find
what your gun likes.
Our hi spread E.S. was 47 before we used the new hydro press
We were able to get this down to 8E.S. With sorting faborable
PSI
This new press will tell You what you need to know..
Thanks, John
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
21shooter said:
Monte, I think this tells you he would rather not share the info, but he is saying it works. I trust John, but I think being a competitive shooter himself and having a team, he would like to hold his cards close to his chest.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Erik Cortina said:
That doesn't exactly jive with offering the units up for sale. Sooner or later, someone is going to sit down and do a test and publish the numbers.
The 47 vs. 8 fps ES for unsorted vs. sorted sounds great... but I'd much rather see the raw data myself.
Actually, among many, there is little doubt that improving consistency in bullet seating force will show up as lower velocity spreads. The tests and discussions are nothing new. I seem to remember them from the late 90s, when Dave Dohrmann came out with his force gauge. (that was discontinued because the fellow that was making them for Dave stopped because of other comittments) The question is how to best accomplish this sorting, and the key seems to be being able to have as much control of the seating stroke of an arbor press as one can manage. Looking at the video, it seems to me that the length of the handle of John's press, combined with the smoothness of the hydraulic system, are significant. We know that both this press and the K&M are technique sensitive, and it seems to me that what has been accomplished with this new design is improved control. The end of the handle moves farther, and I would guess requires less effort, making it easier to control, which should increase the consistency of readings. If John has a weakness, it is that he tends to disregard cost in favor of getting the best result. In my mind, and I am sure those of his other customers, that is a great virtue. Sometimes I get the feeling that some people in the shooting/and reloading products business are a long way from the reloading bench, and range. John is a serious competitor, that puts a lot into his shooting hobby, and that experience and enthusiasm, combined with his expertise in manufacturing, have resulted in a great line of products.
You made an excellent point, Boyd, about the K&M arm length. I just ordered 12" 304 stainless 5/16" rod and a 1.25" diameter red ball knob for the handle from McMaster-Carr. I'll use a 5/16-18 die to thread 1/2" and give it a try. The current arm is 4" long and the knob 1" diameter. If it is too long, I'll cut it off 1" at a time until it seems right. The knob always seemed a little small to me. I'll report my results. [br]
BTW, the materials were all of $4.43.
BTW, the materials were all of $4.43.
Just for contrasting consideration, there are other ways to do this.
For ~10yrs or so I've been using force sensing over Sinclair mandrels(which are free floating). I use mandrels to drive thickness variance outward prior to seating anyway, and this seems a better time to check seating force consistency than while seating actual bullets. The mandrels are a lot harder than bullet jackets and made of steel of course.
Sinclair's latest gen mandrel dies have a cap you can notch and glue a force sensor into.
I use these: http://www.tekscan.com/flexiforce.html
For a while I used a simple multimeter indicating resistance from the sensor, and this worked fine. Then I through together an amplified purpose built meter which has worked well. Now I see they offer readouts with/without laptop interfacing. But I like what I've been using well enough.
I still use inline dies and an arbor press for actual seating.
For ~10yrs or so I've been using force sensing over Sinclair mandrels(which are free floating). I use mandrels to drive thickness variance outward prior to seating anyway, and this seems a better time to check seating force consistency than while seating actual bullets. The mandrels are a lot harder than bullet jackets and made of steel of course.
Sinclair's latest gen mandrel dies have a cap you can notch and glue a force sensor into.
I use these: http://www.tekscan.com/flexiforce.html
For a while I used a simple multimeter indicating resistance from the sensor, and this worked fine. Then I through together an amplified purpose built meter which has worked well. Now I see they offer readouts with/without laptop interfacing. But I like what I've been using well enough.
I still use inline dies and an arbor press for actual seating.
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