New 21st Century Shooting Hydraulic Arbor Press

[rxs0]

New 21st Century Shooting Hydraulic Arbor Press

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rMBP7I6F30

rxs0

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I wonder if you loose that ''feel'' you get with a mechanical linkage?

 

[BoydAllen]

Wow! How much does it cost? I think that it would be good to use a thousand yard caliber that has the potential to do single digit ESs, and show the effect of different seating pressures on velocity. In this case, I would not use a PPC, because they are generally not up to the standard for ES that the long bullet, long range calibers do when loaded to their best. Once the linkage between seating pressure and velocity was firmly documented ( and I have no doubt that it will be) I think that there will be a lot of demand for this unit. It looks like the press handle is long enough so that a superior level of feel and control will be available, and I think that this showed up in the video in the way that the gauge responded as the bullets were seated. With the longer handle comes a longer more controllable stroke.

 

[Steve Blair]

The work required to seat the bullet is force over time. In order for the gauge to show accurate, meaningful readings, the same stroke time must be used every seating. It would be very easy to unintentionally skew the readings by varying the stroke time. A screw drive with a high torque gear motor and low friction thrust bearing could possibly deliver a very consistent stroke time. [br]
This is the same problem the K&M unit has. Its belleville washer stack should be very consistent but stroke time is difficult to repeat accurately.

 

[Bowhunter4]

I have been using this press for about two months know. The press in the video is not the production version. Looking at the gauge it stays at 10psi or so. The production version does not it goes back to zero. This press has amazing feel much better then the gear type arbor press. I think John said they are going to be priced around $250.00. This press is ambidextrous meaning you can move the gauge to the right or left side. I have been able to retrieve a lot of info from this press has helped in a lot of areas of my reloading process. definitely has brought back some excitement to reloading. This is much more then just a bullet seater press. I also use it with my Wilson neck die.

 

[stool]

THERE ARE THREE PARTS TO SEATING
starting the bullet
moving the bullet
and in the case of a full case of powder,compressing/stop point.

going past the shoulder neck junction could be another pressure point...

to me the tool makes sense if you limit your loads to the first two..

 

[Bowhunter4]

The work required to seat the bullet is force over time. In order for the gauge to show accurate, meaningful readings, the same stroke time must be used every seating. It would be very easy to unintentionally skew the readings by varying the stroke time. A screw drive with a high torque gear motor and low friction thrust bearing could possibly deliver a very consistent stroke time. [br]
This is the same problem the K&M unit has. Its belleville washer stack should be very consistent but stroke time is difficult to repeat accurately.

This is a true hydraulic press . Their are no washers in this system. I have not seen any problems with the stoke over force as long as you don't over stroke it. and surpass the reading.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I wonder if you loose that ''feel'' you get with a mechanical linkage?

It would depend upon just how accurate your "feel" is, and your confidence it it?!! For certain, you would be surrendering your "feel" to the mechanical device otherwise. Bullet seating with a Wilson seating die and a good Sinclair Arbor Press, one can become quite deft in segregating his seated bullets in accordance with his "felt resistance" when slowly lowering the arbor press handle in a consistent manner. My technique is to use a series of large clear plastic drink cups marked into resistance batches as follows: Heavy Plus, Heavy, Heavy-Medium, Medium, Medium-Light, Light, Light Minus. However, I do not find myself using all of these categories in my seating process involving my .284 or 7mm short magnums...more generally, I see a range of Light Minus up to Medium-Light; and infrequently, a few Mediums. It just takes a little practice to acquire a "feel" to accurately demark felt seating resistance. Thereafter, I place my seated bullets in MTM ammo boxes in order of lowest resistance on up the line with greater seating resistance. It provided excellent ES's for me.

Danny Biggs

 

[Steve Blair]

The work required to seat the bullet is force over time. In order for the gauge to show accurate, meaningful readings, the same stroke time must be used every seating. It would be very easy to unintentionally skew the readings by varying the stroke time. A screw drive with a high torque gear motor and low friction thrust bearing could possibly deliver a very consistent stroke time. [br]
This is the same problem the K&M unit has. Its belleville washer stack should be very consistent but stroke time is difficult to repeat accurately.

This is a true hydraulic press . Their are no washers in this system. I have not seen any problems with the stoke over force as long as you don't over stroke it. and surpass the reading.

[br]
Phil, try to pay attention and read posts accurately. I never said it contained any washers. The K&M unit uses a belleville washer stack that produces fairly consistent resistance over its deflection range. Thus, the dial indicator that comes with that unit will display a reading indicative of force. If the stroke speed is not very consistent, it will not display reliable readings. It is the same problem, regardless of the different mechanisms. [br]
To put it another way: As long as you exert enough force to overcome friction and seat the bullet, varying the stroke speed can produce almost any reading you want above that.

 

[johara1]

I use the moving part as my reference on the K&M. I try to just over come the force needed and as it moves is the number i reference.The start and the spike at the end disregard. It has worked for me at 1000 yds. I see no reason why a hyd. pressure gage won't do the same. I have been using the K&M set up for so long i found the die stem is worn out. So my track record with the force indicator set up has proved successful and i see this the same way……. jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

Well that is interesting, I would think you would want to keep this press inside at the same temperature every time though.

 

[21shooter]

Hi
ZFast, you feel everything_with this New Instrument. You can feel neck wall thickness differences (I'm talking .0001 differences in wall thickness) Brass annealment etc.

Hi Steve, Yes stroke speed is important. But very easy to control once the bullet starts to move record - the P.S.I. Pulling the handle harder has very little effect on the gage. It just pushes the bullet in quicker.

Hi Danny,
Well, Feel on the Sinclair or any other Arbor Press is not what you think it is. I was shocked! with the typical Arbor Press it's very hard to feel + - 20 P.S.I. I thought I was better at the feel thing too.

Stool: You Are correct.

Hi Ray,
Keeping everything constant in this game is the key. Including temperature.

As for me, This thing has exceeded my expectations!
I believe this instrument will help in the reloading process,
with feedback never before optainable. ;D

Thanks, John

 

[Milo 2.0]

This thread and the other one like it are very interesting. I notice variances in neck tension of brass on my Forster coax, was always curious.

I bought the 21st Century Lathe stuff, and neck turned all my 6.5x47 brass. Asked all my shooting pals as to how to measure neck tension now. I was told I was over thinking this and complicating matters. Seating my bullets felt like pushing them into warm butter, and could easily crank them in further with my Redding comp die, I didn't like it and went .004" under with some success.

Anyway thanks, you guys are putting some perspective into this madness.

 

[Erik Cortina]

John, I also have the K&M press, and I also found that the readings were affected with differences in stroke.

I would like to try it and do some testing on my 1,000 yard range. I have confidence that it's great just as your primer pocket uniforming tool is.
I never could see the difference with the K&M, but yours operates differently. If you are looking for testers let me know, I'll give it a try.

P.S. I see on your signature line that you "own" your shooting team, about time Phil, Pete, and Mike had an owner!

 

[SDDasher]

I have to say IMHO neck tension is one of the most important components of the reloading process as it relates to accuracy down range. This will be a welcomed addition to our growing arsenal of equipment to accurately measure the processes. Great Job 21st Century. Look forward to this new press.

 

[Shynloco]

This thread and the other one like it are very interesting. I notice variances in neck tension of brass on my Forster coax, was always curious. .....Seating my bullets felt like pushing them into warm butter,

First off, John you've once again provided reloading folks with a very nice piece of equipment. Since I don't compete but reload and shoot for pleasure and entertainment, this new baby might be a bit pricey for my wallet. But like milo-2 says, I've come to be keenly aware of any variances when seating bullets using my Wilson dies and Sinclair Arbor Press. What comes to my mind for me is that "feel" (some others have spoken of) is what tells me a good deal about the status of my brass (hardness) and whether I have a neck tension issue in any of the casings. Now admittedly, I have no idea the exact amount of force being exerted to seat a bullet and the new 21st hydraulic press would give me a numerical value. But it's just that variance in feel that I seek with each round and caliber I reload for. I'm somewhat concerned that the hydraulic assistance would take away from that all important feel. But again like Milo-2 says, I'm probably overthinking the whole thing. But Kudos for sure to John at 21st for some very fine equipment 21st manufactures.

Alex

 

[johara1]

Eric, You could never see the difference with a K&M ?….. jim

 

[Milo 2.0]

This thread and the other one like it are very interesting. I notice variances in neck tension of brass on my Forster coax, was always curious. .....Seating my bullets felt like pushing them into warm butter,

First off, John you've once again provided reloading folks with a very nice piece of equipment. Since I don't compete but reload and shoot for pleasure and entertainment, this new baby might be a bit pricey for my wallet. But like milo-2 says, I've come to be keenly aware of any variances when seating bullets using my Wilson dies and Sinclair Arbor Press. What comes to my mind for me is that "feel" (some others have spoken of) is what tells me a good deal about the status of my brass (hardness) and whether I have a neck tension issue in any of the casings. Now admittedly, I have no idea the exact amount of force being exerted to seat a bullet and the new 21st hydraulic press would give me a numerical value. But it's just that variance in feel that I seek with each round and caliber I reload for. I'm somewhat concerned that the hydraulic assistance would take away from that all important feel. But again like Milo-2 says, I'm probably overthinking the whole thing. But Kudos for sure to John at 21st for some very fine equipment 21st manufactures.

Alex

I'm so with this guy and what he says, a gauge to truly measure neck tension. John, make this setup to work with ordinary presses, please
I said I'd never neck turn, but economics forced me into it. And today, I'll state I'll never use an arbor press and that style die to load ammo, but I will eat my words if need be.
For my shooting discipline, my ammo is more than accurate enough.
Good on you, John.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Eric, You could never see the difference with a K&M ?….. jim

I could, but I felt my input would skew the results too easy. Maybe I'll try it again and see if I can develop a more consistent way of doing it.

 

[Blaster-37]

John,
Very cool. Once again you find a weak link in our match reloading and provide an alternative. It takes a competition shooter like you and the way you listen to the others to achieve this.
When I look at my bench, I would hate to have to go back from the 21st Century tools I use.
Many thanks from the shooters that attempt perfection.
Greg