New 1886 Winchester .45/90

[mrhunterken]

The new 1886 Winchesters, in .45/90 have a sticker attached to the barrel, stating the use of Black Powder Only!! Why is this. Should'nt these rifles be at least as strong, and be able to handle smokeless loads for like 1886 .45/70's?

 

[TIMO]

I would probably say yes, but what does the manual say. I have a Perdersoli (repo) 1874 in 45-90 and with a standard load it does fine. I have shot some very stout loads in a modern Marlin 1895 45-70, 2 rounds and I was done. Standard 45-70 (Trapdoor loads) are hard to beat for most applications I think.

Tim

 

[HHSohn]

I came across that question some time ago when I was looking for a single shot .45-70. The consensus on the single shot .45-70 community was that it was a legal thing due to .45-90 not being a SAMMI spec. I believe smokeless loads are often used, but as you can expect, you should do your own homework.

 

[joshb]

I’d suggest you call them. I bought the 45/70 version and wondered how much they could take. The book has three separate load charts. “Old guns” (including the 1886), Marlin 1895 and Ruger #1. The guy at Winchester said my modern Miroku remake 1886 could handle the Marlin loads so I tried some. My shoulder regretted that! A year later, I bought a Ruger #1. Guess I’m a masochist.

 

[Gun Smith]

My shoulder hurts just thinking about shooting that .45/90, even with black powder. I used to own 2 Marlin .45/70's, and those were kickin' machines. Can't take that abuse anymore. I passed on a beautiful Nippon Winchester 1885 copy in .45/70 after viewing it's curved steel butt. Ouch! The old Trapdoor Springfield w/metal butt is painful. Must have been real men back in the day!

 

[Ray123]

Old thread but...I shoot heavy smokeless powder in my 45-90 Japanese Winchester express, that says "black powder only" on the barrel...400 gr bullets out of the Winchester Short Rifle's 20" barrel at 2200 fps. You can also use 45-70 brass for long 500 gr Hornaday bullets just use lathe & collet to trim 6 grains off the lead RN tip to get the 2.850" max feed length and it runs just undet 1800 fps. There is a guy shooting his 45-90 on video with 250 gr copper bullets over 3000 fps....and it's a black powder only too...and Lyman has smokeless powder load data for thr 45-90 in their load manual for cast bullets, but it works for jacketed bullets too, just work up to the max..

 

[XTR]

For reference I own and shoot two ‘74 Sharps reproductions with Holy black and galena, and a Miroku highwall in 45-70.

I don’t understand why in the world you would want to shoot a 45-90 with smokeless. The case capacity is in the range of a 458 win mag and about 50% more than you can reasonably load with smokeless powder. In practice I find that 45-70 has problems with powder position in the 2/3 filled case with most smokeless, can only be worse in a 45-90.

I think the bottom line is that the 45-90 has never been a smokeless chambering, it doesn’t lend itself well to smokeless. If they chambered rifles in any of the other smoke cases (some of which pretty popular with BPCR guys) from the late 1800s you’d likely see the same. The appeal of the 45-90 along with the other smokeless cartridges is to black powder shooters so the aren’t toasted to smokeless levels.

my highwall has a recoil pad, not a steel shoulder separating device

 

[C_Ackley]

It's lawyer/liability stuff, ignore it. That 1886 uses the same materials the 45-70 models do.

 

[Ray123]

For reference I own and shoot two ‘74 Sharps reproductions with Holy black and galena, and a Miroku highwall in 45-70.

I don’t understand why in the world you would want to shoot a 45-90 with smokeless. The case capacity is in the range of a 458 win mag and about 50% more than you can reasonably load with smokeless powder. In practice I find that 45-70 has problems with powder position in the 2/3 filled case with most smokeless, can only be worse in a 45-90.

I think the bottom line is that the 45-90 has never been a smokeless chambering, it doesn’t lend itself well to smokeless. If they chambered rifles in any of the other smoke cases (some of which pretty popular with BPCR guys) from the late 1800s you’d likely see the same. The appeal of the 45-90 along with the other smokeless cartridges is to black powder shooters so the aren’t toasted to smokeless levels.

my highwall has a recoil pad, not a steel shoulder separating device

Alot of guys shoot the new 45-90 with smokless powder loads. The steel but blate is okay for off hand shooting, and it's only slightly over one grain less than the 458 mag in capacity, but seat the bullet to 2.850" for the lever gun, bringing the capacity down. I run 75 grs of smokless behind a jacketed 300 gr bullet. The 45-90 is capable of over 4000 ft /lbs especially in the 24" barrel. Mine is only 20" barrel, and I run ruger #1 2.5" to 2.6" OAL max load data for my 1886 with 2.850" C.O.A.L. there is on YouTube a 50-110 1886 channel, where he shoots the 45-90 and the 50-110 with heavy smokeless loads. Multiple ball loads, and shot loads....and of coarse black powder loads. It may or may not be for you but many enjoy the full range of the types of shooting the 45-90 is capable of. The only one I haven't tried is black powder. I perfer to load it in a progressive press with smokeless, and jacketed bullets.

 

[Phys86]

Alot of guys shoot the new 45-90 with smokless powder loads. The steel but blate is okay for off hand shooting, and it's only slightly over one grain less than the 458 mag in capacity, but seat the bullet to 2.850" for the lever gun, bringing the capacity down. I run 75 grs of smokless behind a jacketed 300 gr bullet. The 45-90 is capable of over 4000 ft /lbs especially in the 24" barrel. Mine is only 20" barrel, and I run ruger #1 2.5" to 2.6" OAL max load data for my 1886 with 2.850" C.O.A.L. there is on YouTube a 50-110 1886 channel, where he shoots the 45-90 and the 50-110 with heavy smokeless loads. Multiple ball loads, and shot loads....and of coarse black powder loads. It may or may not be for you but many enjoy the full range of the types of shooting the 45-90 is capable of. The only one I haven't tried is black powder. I perfer to load it in a progressive press with smokeless, and jacketed bullets.

So you're saying you have a modern miroku mfg 1886 45-90 that you use 75gr smokeless and a 300gr jacketed bullet in? That seems like it would be a ton of pressure. I have a miroku 1886 45-90 that I've shot jacketed 300gr Hornady HP with 52gr imr4198 and felt like it was starting to get iffy on pressure. I think I was starting to get ejector marks on the primer at that point, which may amount to nothing. I've read that you can't really use the same max pressure indicators on shooting straight wall rimmed cartridges in a lever gun that you would in rimless bottleneck cartridges from a bolt gun.

 

[C_Ackley]

So you're saying you have a modern miroku mfg 1886 45-90 that you use 75gr smokeless and a 300gr jacketed bullet in? That seems like it would be a ton of pressure. I have a miroku 1886 45-90 that I've shot jacketed 300gr Hornady HP with 52gr imr4198 and felt like it was starting to get iffy on pressure.

Depends on the powder, 75gr could be a lot or next to nothing.
52gr of IMR4198 is probably on the lower end, likely under 20,000psi given the greater case capacity of the 45-90.
Hodgdon is showing 53.7gr of IMR4198 under a 300gr Sierra in 45-70, as the STARTING Levergun load. Hodgdon also shows a trapdoor MAX load as 48gr of IMR4198 for the same bullet.
The challenge of loading for a modern Miroku 45-90 or 50-110 is that there is basically no data published. These guns will easily sustain 40,000CUP(43,000psi), but how do you know where that is?

There's another challenge too, you won't see conventional "pressure signs" in leverguns. The pressures you see stamping, primer gas leak, cratering, etc are all way above the pressures that would cause a levergun to immediately fail catastrophically. There are basically no pressure signs you can read.
I have an 1892 that puts marks from the bolt face on the case head regardless of what pressure the load is. The bolt face is just not flush.

 

[Phys86]

Depends on the powder, 75gr could be a lot or next to nothing.
52gr of IMR4198 is probably on the lower end, likely under 20,000psi given the greater case capacity of the 45-90.
Hodgdon is showing 53.7gr of IMR4198 under a 300gr Sierra in 45-70, as the STARTING Levergun load. Hodgdon also shows a trapdoor MAX load as 48gr of IMR4198 for the same bullet.
The challenge of loading for a modern Miroku 45-90 or 50-110 is that there is basically no data published. These guns will easily sustain 40,000CUP(43,000psi), but how do you know where that is?

There's another challenge too, you won't see conventional "pressure signs" in leverguns. The pressures you see stamping, primer gas leak, cratering, etc are all way above the pressures that would cause a levergun to immediately fail catastrophically. There are basically no pressure signs you can read.
I have an 1892 that puts marks from the bolt face on the case head regardless of what pressure the load is. The bolt face is just not flush.

Yes, it's hard to know where you're at without hardly any info to go on for pressure numbers. I used existing 45-70 data to determine where to start and where I might want to stop. For the bullets I've got, Hornady shows the max imr4198 charge for the 1895 45-70 loads being about 48.7gr if I remember correctly. It says their pressures were limited to 40k psi for that data set. So I worked up to 52 or 53 from there, getting I think close to 2300fps. I figured I might be getting up there in pressure so I stopped.

I would guess that 75gr may be 3031. The published charge weights for similar speeds are much higher with that powder.

 

[Ray123]

So you're saying you have a modern miroku mfg 1886 45-90 that you use 75gr smokeless and a 300gr jacketed bullet in? That seems like it would be a ton of pressure. I have a miroku 1886 45-90 that I've shot jacketed 300gr Hornady HP with 52gr imr4198 and felt like it was starting to get iffy on pressure. I think I was starting to get ejector marks on the primer at that point, which may amount to nothing. I've read that you can't really use the same max pressure indicators on shooting straight wall rimmed cartridges in a lever gun that you would in rimless bottleneck cartridges from a bolt gun.

Yes, "I don't say"..."I have"... a modern steel 1886 miroku 45-90 ...that says "black powder only" on the barrel. That is for manufacturing liability...cause there are no modern specs or loads, plus all the old antique 86s out there, in various conditions.
Yes, I shoot 76 gr of powder behind a 300 gr jacketed bullet...71 behind a 350gr. In a 20" Winchester Short Rifle, light and handy.
Machine the tip off the old jacketed 500 gr Hornaday to just 496 gr so they feed through the magazine. Or shoot 500 gr lead at 1810 fps.... the 45-90 cases I have, hold 91.8 gr of water...and the 458 Win Mag holds 95.6 gr...a lot of capacity can utilize different powders.
Search for the man who took the modern 1886 45-90 to Africa, now there are some stout loads, even had to back off the powder in the African heat ...sticky extraction...a sign of pressure. Manufacturers don't go back in time to make guns with old steels to make any modern rifle in an "old caliber"...so most in good condition will handle a slight increase in pressure...depending on the thickness of the chamber walls, and strength of the action. The modern 92 & 86 are strong, compared to other vintage actions.

Pressure... I have a modern 1892 lever action that runs 65,000 psi loads...same as the 300 RUM or 300 WSM!....in 454 Casull, 240 gr 2300 fps 300 gr 2000 fps. All loads Chronographed over magneto speed. So we know the Browning design is strong and in modern steels will handle more pressure.
Pressure will appear just like any bolt action ...pressure doesn't care what type of action your shooting and brass and primers act tbe same .
You are not at high enough pressure in the weaker actions to "show the signs."

And the weakest of leverguns.. the 1873 Winchester, has been chambered in 44 Magnum! By Cimarron ...I saw a guy shooting th 1873, in video with 44 mag factory ammo in a factory 44 mag 1873! Don't know the details of the action or if its been beefed up, or a slight change in design...but exterior looks like a normal 1873.But that's pushing the envelope...don't know how many 73s were chambered in 44 Mag or if they still chamber for it...some things are hard to get these days...I have the only Win 92 16" stainless 454 Casull I've ever seen...purchased the second I saw it ...it now has many thousands of hot 454s through it at around the 65,000 psi mark, some a little above, most likely...Interestingly most bolt action magnum rifles like the 300 RUM in the 65,000 psi category have not gone through as many rounds, as the little 1892 lever action in 454.

 

[Adam in WI]

52gr of IMR4198 is probably on the lower end, likely under 20,000psi given the greater case capacity of the

Without knowing more particulars, I get 31,500 psi for that combo. 58.0 grains comes out 10k higher, so it looks like it ramps up quickly with that powder

 

[Phys86]

Yes, "I don't say"..."I have"... a modern steel 1886 miroku 45-90 ...that says "black powder only" on the barrel. That is for manufacturing liability...cause there are no modern specs or loads, plus all the old antique 86s out there, in various conditions.
Yes, I shoot 76 gr of powder behind a 300 gr jacketed bullet...71 behind a 350gr. In a 20" Winchester Short Rifle, light and handy.
Machine the tip off the old jacketed 500 gr Hornaday to just 496 gr so they feed through the magazine. Or shoot 500 gr lead at 1810 fps.... the 45-90 cases I have, hold 91.8 gr of water...and the 458 Win Mag holds 95.6 gr...a lot of capacity can utilize different powders.
Search for the man who took the modern 1886 45-90 to Africa, now there are some stout loads, even had to back off the powder in the African heat ...sticky extraction...a sign of pressure. Manufacturers don't go back in time to make guns with old steels to make any modern rifle in an "old caliber"...so most in good condition will handle a slight increase in pressure...depending on the thickness of the chamber walls, and strength of the action. The modern 92 & 86 are strong, compared to other vintage actions.

Pressure... I have a modern 1892 lever action that runs 65,000 psi loads...same as the 300 RUM or 300 WSM!....in 454 Casull, 240 gr 2300 fps 300 gr 2000 fps. All loads Chronographed over magneto speed. So we know the Browning design is strong and in modern steels will handle more pressure.
Pressure will appear just like any bolt action ...pressure doesn't care what type of action your shooting and brass and primers act tbe same .
You are not at high enough pressure in the weaker actions to "show the signs."

And the weakest of leverguns.. the 1873 Winchester, has been chambered in 44 Magnum! By Cimarron ...I saw a guy shooting th 1873, in video with 44 mag factory ammo in a factory 44 mag 1873! Don't know the details of the action or if its been beefed up, or a slight change in design...but exterior looks like a normal 1873.But that's pushing the envelope...don't know how many 73s were chambered in 44 Mag or if they still chamber for it...some things are hard to get these days...I have the only Win 92 16" stainless 454 Casull I've ever seen...purchased the second I saw it ...it now has many thousands of hot 454s through it at around the 65,000 psi mark, some a little above, most likely...Interestingly most bolt action magnum rifles like the 300 RUM in the 65,000 psi category have not gone through as many rounds, as the little 1892 lever action in 454.

I've read quite a few of that guy's posts on other forums. I was surprised to see how stout of loads he was putting through it. Even though the actions of today are obviously stronger, there's just not much info out there on the strength of them. A lot of people think they're not as strong as the marlin 1895 and that is what I thought until I found some more info. I PM you with a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Without knowing more particulars, I get 31,500 psi for that combo. 58.0 grains comes out 10k higher, so it looks like it ramps up quickly with that powder

Is that from quickload?

 

[Adam in WI]

Is that from quickload?

Gordon's reloading tool

 

[C_Ackley]

Gordon's reloading tool

Had some weird stuff in that program.
I would struggle believing that the 53.7gr of 4198 in a 45-70 producing 33,000CUP(around 32,000psi) according to Hodgdon, that 52gr of 4198 in a 45-90 case is producing basically the same.
Ah doubt its veracity here.

 

[Adam in WI]

Ah doubt its veracity here.

I was using generic inputs. Accuracy of the output depends greatly on actual measured case capacity, cartridge overall length, etc...

 

[C_Ackley]

I was using generic inputs. Accuracy of the output depends greatly on actual measured case capacity, cartridge overall length, etc...

Even using exacting measurments, I've not been impressed with that program. QL does a better job in my experience, but it's not cheap.

 

[Phys86]

I've got GRT on my computer. I just didn't think about it having that cartridge or bullet on there. I'll take some measurements at some point and see if it gives a velocity anywhere near what I was getting.