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Need some troubleshooting help: Bad Gas Block or Out of Spec Bolt Catch

Upper: VLTOR MUR-1A
Barrel: Proof Rifle+1 Gas system, 6mm arc chamber, 18" barrel length, model 128688
Handguard: CMT HDM Arca 17"
Gasblock: Superlative arms Clamp model .750 gas journal
Gas tube: Proof supplied with barrel, rifle+1 length
BCG: CMC Triggers 6 arc enhanced, bolt headspacing verified to barrel with go/no go gauges, model 81635

Lower:
Aero X15 stripped. Assembled approx. 2017 with PSA LPK (no FCG)
Trigger: Geissele SSA-E
Buffer System: full VLTOR RE-A5 (H2 weight - default parts what they supplied at the original time when it was launched), spring also standard vltor milspec rifle), VLTOR A5 receiver extension
Stock: Magpul PRS Lite

Original lower has approx. 4,000-5,000 rounds through it, possibly a few more. Had a white oak assembled SPR Upper mated to it.

I built the 6mm arc upper in the description back in December to use on this lower. This is about the 10th AR Ive assembled in total. The lower used here, I had hands-on help assembling back in 2017 from a cerakote specialist and FFL, as it was my first one.

Initial testing showed a few issues:

1: BCG failed to lock back on bolt catch, bolt would sit locked against the magazine follower
2: accuracy was pretty bad, approx. 1.5" moa with hornady ELD Match at 100 yards.

Contacted proof, they advised me to send the barrel back to them. They noted unusual gas port erosion, and "a mix of small issues" that they said together would explain the accuracy issues, and replaced the barrel (and gas tube) under warranty.

Reinstalled new barrel to the VLTOR upper (used steel shim, and green loctite, as barrel extension to upper fit was loose). reinstalled all above parts as well.

Back to testing, followed their break in process (clean/shoot in intervals)...BCG issue presenting itself again.

So far, to test, Ive tried a different BCG entirely (Milspec 6 arc from optics planet "Trybe"), tried a JP Enhanced bolt in the CMC carrier, Tried CMC bolt in mil spec carrier, and tried all 3 bolts in a known working carrier (original from white oak).

Also tried ASC grendel and 6mm arc mags, duramag 6mm grendel steel mags, PMAG, lancer mag, etc, all in total tried at least 5 different magazines.

All result in Bolt locking on magazine follower. Went through testing the full range of gas block adjustment, only results I got were getting it to eject a round out very limp, or fail to eject, or fail to even lock back.

I have a few different VLTOR weights on order (H0, H1, H3, H4) to try different buffers, but working through the possibilities, only thing I can think of so far is defective gas block (maybe explains the gas port erosion on the first barrel? maybe not), or possibly out of spec older bolt catch that may need replacing by now. Didnt get a chance to try it on a different lower yet to rule that out, as it just came up as a possibility from reading threads in here last night.

I also measured the gas port in the barrel, and it is to the proof spec, (0.096") as well, as this was a known issue with them shipping out under-sized gas port 6mm arc barrels earlier on.

Also, photo of the issue:

O2AzGX1.jpeg


There's at least 200 rounds through this BCG and barrel, and another 100 on the first barrel (and same BCG) before it was sent back to Proof for replacement.

Ammo used so far is Hornady Black 105 grain, # 81604 and Hornady ELD Match 108 grain # 81608, boxes have come from different sources too, some bought locally, some online, so not one specific lot. Have only gotten the bolt to fully lock back on the 108 grain once or twice, but no repetition or consistency.

Also, if loading a mag with multiple rounds, it will cycle, bolt goes forward, loads next round, etc, this operation is normal. The failure only happens on last round, or if loading 1 round to a mag.

Also, gas port and gas block alignment was verified both times on install, I ran a fiber optic light through the gas tube, and then a bore scope through the muzzle end, to verify alignment.
CKsRUsS.jpeg
 
I have seen similar issues and it turned out to be a paper towel in the buffer tube overlooked by a Soldier. I'm sure you have already looked but???? Also have seen this issue caused by a broken gas key screw but from what I've read you have already tried different BCG's. Good luck in finding the problem.
 
Your next to last paragraph says it all. Need stronger magazine springs for the speed of the BCG. If it cycles all but doesn’t hold open the bolt on the last round in a mag or single load … that says magazine issue to me.

Edit to add .. WOA has a procedure for determining if you are overgassed or undergassed on their web page.

Basically single load and fire while depressing the top of the bolt release ( making it a bolt catch ). Results will tell you if the bolt catch or under gassing is the problem …

Also some offside releases will impact bolt hold open. Do you have one of those in the upper ?
 
Do you happen to have a bob sled? Take the magazine out as a variable. Or single load without a mag in place. Its tricky but doable.

Do you have other ARs? I would try that upper with a standard lower. And that lower with a standard upper. The hope being to figure out which part of the system has the problem. However, it might be an issue only present with both systems together. Hopefully thats possible. I have never built anything other than 556

My initial thoughts on what could be wrong is something to do with weak gas getting that buffer back.

So you could either have not enough gas getting into the bcg. (We know it's not the bcg problem based on your tests)

Or your buffer is far too heavy or stiff.
What kind of buffer spring is in there?
If it were me, I'd strip down the vltor buffer system and install a straight milspec carbine system. Just to see if it changes something. If a carbine extension system doesn't work, it's gotta be a problem with the gas interaction with the BCG.


If everything with the buffer innards amd extension checks out, then it's the transfer of gas between your gas port and up to when the gas transfers to the BGC. OR an obstruction in your upper that is hindering BCG movement.

Does the gas tube in the upper have any odd markings or abrasion?
Does the upper show unusual wear when the bcg is removed? Something that would impede the BCG.
Does the charging handle have any odd wear marks? Just for kicks, swap out the charging handle.


Hopefully one of these alterations and or tests will help narrow down the issue.
 
Im ruling out the magazine springs..since Ive tried at least 6 different brands of magazine so far.

I wasnt able to find any links to the white oak test mentioned, but can try it as explained above.

I will be trying it on a different lower as well. The current spring is a mil-spec rifle, but I have another AR that runs a carbine receiver that I can try as well.

I can try changing out the charging handle as well. No odd wear marks on this upper or BCG that I can tell either. Only thing that seems abnormal is the barrel nut has carbon fouling marks under where the gas tube enters the upper, like its somehow bleeding off into the handguard instead?
 
The 6mm arc was designed to use a standard carbine buffer, 3oz and spring. Sometimes the lightened rifle buffers and rifle springs don’t work as well as a carbine spring and spacer, but buffer weight is your likely problem.

Since it’s a non standard gas length, the best thing to do would be to ask Proof what weight buffer and spring their barrel is port is calibrated to.
 
As an update, I was not able to get the aero adjustable gas block to function reliably with the rifle either. When I removed the handguard I saw a lot of carbon in front of the gas block, pretty sure it was a sign of gas leaking?

Following that, I installed a standard gas block (non adjustable), from my parts bin, old ballistic advantage one that came with a hanson barrel.

Moving forward, the CMC Triggers 6 arc enhanced BCG still would not function reliably, despite cycling through the buffer weights (H0, H1, H2, H3, H4).

I switched that BCG out, and stuck in a cheap one I got from optics planet (trybe brand - milspec) and it ran reliably for the first time for about 10 rounds, then the extract broke off on the bolt.

I had my JP bolt with me, and a standard mil spec bcg (white oak), which ran reliably about 80% of the time when moving to the H1 buffer (standard is H2). By that point I ran out of ammo...but making some progress.

I was told that the JP 1 piece gas ring can cause some issues as well, so when I got home I pulled my field repair kit, removed the one piece gas ring, and installed standard 3 piece gas rings on the JP bolt.

Tomorrow I'm likely going to try the CMC bolt in a standard carrier, and the JP bolt in a standard carrier, see if there's any difference in reliable operation.

Im also beginning to wonder if opening up the gas port on the barrel itself is the next step..

I did the white oak test for the bolt catch, and the lower passed.

I did at one point swap lowers as well, just to rule that out as well. Im also wondering if its possible that something with the upper may be out of spec, as its about the only part I havent tried a replacement of.
 
I did get to running a bore scope down here again, and seeing quite a bit of gas port erosion considering its only seen about 200 rounds down this barrel..

FveFHES.jpeg


I contacted superlative arms about it and was given some interesting feedback from them to try.

They are convinced it should run on "open" if it runs with a regular gas block.

Told me to ditch the vltor system (or try a sprinco reduced power spring). Also recommended I try a standard carbine buffer weight and spring (that proof's rifle +1 is meant to run on that)..first time Ive ever heard that.

As far as what direction was it ejecting brass..once I finally got it running reliably with the standard gas block, probably between 3-4 o clock, but it wasnt doing it 100% of the time.
 
Yikes!! That is really bad. When you got the new barrel from proof, did they put a brand new block on it or reuse the the old block? If they put the old one back on, maybe send it to superlative arms and have them check it out? Also maybe take it off and try and feed a pipe cleaner through it. Or soak it in some carbon cleaner for a few days?

If i am understanding correctly. The erosion really indicates that gas is not flowing freely into the block?
 
That gas port is not that bad. I have seen a lot worse that still shot real well. That is after the port so it wont affect cycling.
 
With Superlative GB, check to see if your gas tube goes into the receiver parallel to the bore. So it is NOT entering the receiver in an angle.
 
With specialty cartridges and gas systems, a couple options besides asking here. I suggested the carbine buffer and spring earlier, and in addition to Superlative arms, take a look at the build specs from Noveske,

Then a lot of discussion on 6mmarc.com

Again, a call to Proof would be an easy confirmation.

The longer the gas tube, the fussier the action will be and the more port size and buffer weight will matter. Rifle plus any thing is a custom system. So all conventional weights are off the table.

The longer the system the lighter the weight you’ll need. Since it worked with a standard carbine buffer, and that’s what is considered “normal”. It’s a good place to start. For JP captured setup that would be all steel weights and a white spring.

The photo of your port might be deceiving, the “erosion seems to have a square edge in both photos. If that’s true, it’s not erosion. It’s more likely a burr left from drilling the port. An aggressive cleaning will probably remove it.
 

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