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Need some help on small wildcat round

I have recently put together a 30-223. Just a neck up no other changes. Holds about 23 grains of powder.cci small rifle primers QL shows W296 and Lil gun as great choices. have tried both I am having trouble getting hunting grade accuracy out of it. It seems like every test loading 3 shot group has a flyer off by, well off by too darn much. I would be fine if at 100 yds they would all stay inside 2 moa but always a flyer. Been doing .2gr load ups. Im no benchrest shooter but pretty sure its consistantly worse than I am at my worst! The barrel is a 17.5 twist so bullet options are limited, tried 110gr sierra RN and the 100gr stone hammers. if wondering produces fps in the 2800 +or - at max loadings Any ideas on things to try 0 freebore so COAL usually in the 2.140 range@ 0.020 jump
 
I would try slower powders at .1 at a time
something like AA1680 or 2200 in that burnrate range
 
I would try slower powders at .1 at a time
Was gonna say just the opposite. I think powders that work in a 30BR or 30 Major would be good options. Maybe a tad faster, like n120.
I see no reason it wouldn't shoot tiny with good bullets and rifle components. Not sure what speeds would be correct but getting the pressure up there near max is where I'd start. And I'd ditch those bullets for known good ones. There are many good custom bullets that work great as well as the 115 Bergers.
 
If you look at this burnrate chart N120 is slower than the ones I mentioned
 

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If you look at this burnrate chart N120 is slower than the ones I mentioned
Don't trust that chart. I've never seen a lot that is slower. In a 30BR/30 Major, it's about 2 full grains faster, fwiw. Maybe in some cases but I've never seen it be true yet.
 
I know testing in 20VT its really close to H4198
It might be. I know they went through a period when going to the copper fouling additive to powders that were pretty drastically different than the old stuff. I forget which was first but it was both way slow and way fast for a period. It's close now to the old but I've never got it to shoot quite as well, for whatever reason.
 
Knowing barrel length would help, but your numbers off, unless your brass is really thick or you did something else than just neck up to reduce capacity. Or seating the bullet extremely deep due to the lack of freebore.

You might try a 110 VMax. It’s very forgiving for jump, the round nose bullets will be less forgiving and with 0 freebore, you just can’t adjust length very much.

If you’re limited to 2.260” magazine length, the Berger 115 may be too long and put the ogive below the neck.

Lilgun will probably always give you a flyer, you can reduce the distance out side the group, but it’s always there.

296/H110 really tightens up around 95% load density and above, if you can get there without pressure. Will probably get the highest velocity. Maybe not best accuracy.

Shooters World Blackout, 1680, N120 can almost use the same load data. If 1680 is midian, the others will a fast or slow lot. Shooters world will take a grain less, N120 a grain more to hit the same velocity. All 3 work well slightly compressed, and might just give you higher velocity than 296 due to the slower pressure curve allowing more powder.

LT 30 is actually a really good candidate. Probably can’t get enough in the case to be over pressure, a bit slow compared to the others, very accurate.

Just to mix things up, Maker bullets has an 85 grain bullet designed for 300 BLK. Depending on your barrel length, probably good for 3150-3200 fps in an 18” barrel.
 
Barrel length is 22.5'' rifle was concieved as a low recoil jack of all trades for my son. Bullets need to perform when used on game by a shaky 11 yr old I knew them hunting bullets wouldnt tack drive but moa would be great
 
Knowing barrel length would help, but your numbers off, unless your brass is really thick or you did something else than just neck up to reduce capacity. Or seating the bullet extremely deep due to the lack of freebore.

You might try a 110 VMax. It’s very forgiving for jump, the round nose bullets will be less forgiving and with 0 freebore, you just can’t adjust length very much.

If you’re limited to 2.260” magazine length, the Berger 115 may be too long and put the ogive below the neck.

Lilgun will probably always give you a flyer, you can reduce the distance out side the group, but it’s always there.

296/H110 really tightens up around 95% load density and above, if you can get there without pressure. Will probably get the highest velocity. Maybe not best accuracy.

Shooters World Blackout, 1680, N120 can almost use the same load data. If 1680 is midian, the others will a fast or slow lot. Shooters world will take a grain less, N120 a grain more to hit the same velocity. All 3 work well slightly compressed, and might just give you higher velocity than 296 due to the slower pressure curve allowing more powder.

LT 30 is actually a really good candidate. Probably can’t get enough in the case to be over pressure, a bit slow compared to the others, very accurate.

Just to mix things up, Maker bullets has an 85 grain bullet designed for 300 BLK. Depending on your barrel length, probably good for 3150-3200 fps in an 18” barrel.
Just realized what you meant by my number is off. The empty case itself holds 32gr water. give or take a tenth or 2 both powders i tried were right it the 23gr range at max by QL I assumed most suitable powders would be in that window.
 
I believe there are two similar rounds that are sisters: 7.62x40WT and 300HAM'R.

Think of these as a 300BO, but on steroids, but only focused on supersonic ammunition (no subsonics). These two cartridges are based on the .223 case. Brass is commercially available. However, you can DIY by cutting the .223 neck off at shoulder junction and then expanding the older shoulder section to form the new neck and shoulder for the 300HAM'R case. This extra space allows room for bullets while still fitting within the 2.26" mag length restriction for AR15's. The 300HAM'R utilizes a 1:15 twist for bullets from 95gr-135gr and 1:13 twist for heavy bullets (130gr - 150gr). The most popular powder for 300HAM'R is CFEBlack, which performed the best for this cartridge, which interestingly wasn't nearly as good in the 300BO.

Here is a link to Wilson Combats load data for 300HAM'R (95gr - 150gr bullets). Maybe this will help.
https://storage.googleapis.com/wilsoncombat/ammo_data/300_HAMR_WC_load_data_06292023.pdf

Here is a comparison of 223, 300 HAM'R, & 300 Blackout. Both the HAM'R and Blackout are loaded with same bullet (125gr Speers TNT). The HAM'R case length maximizes amount of powder that can fit while just making the mag length. I have loaded the 300BO long so that I can fit more powder in the case.

223 vs 300HAMR vs 300BO.jpg
 
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Just saw your old 2021 thread about reamer for 30-223... sorry to rehash an old topic.

Can you snap a photo of one of your cartridges. I am curious to see how it looks. Is it a simple neck-up of 223 case or did you also shorten it a bit to provide more room for bullet seating?
 
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Just realized what you meant by my number is off. The empty case itself holds 32gr water. give or take a tenth or 2 both powders i tried were right it the 23gr range at max by QL I assumed most suitable powders would be in that window.
Your still off, part of the problem is Quickload, and most likely you didn’t customize the settings. Or my version is way different than yours.

In my version the 30-223 is not full length 223 necked up. It’s closer to 300 Whisper case length at 1.376”. And a max pressure of 46412 psi. Case capacity 25 grains water.

By changing the settings to case length 1.760” and I used a guess of 33 grains water weight, your 23 grain of 296, was only 85% density and pressure was 49000. You’re leaving a lot of potential on the table if those numbers are close.

First unless your using a rifle with a week action, there’s no reason to run pressures that low. 55,000 psi -60,000 psi is no problem for the cartridge.

My experience with 296 is that at 85% density, accuracy will suck. No surprise you had flyers. This is where the slower powders might be helpful.

But more specifics are needed, Oso, just asked about your reamer, specs would be really helpful. And also what’s is maximum cartridge length you can load, are you restricted to normal 223 length of 2.26”
 
I found the N120 to be about .3-.4 faster than H4198
Was that in your .20 cal? Bore diameter can make a ton of difference even with similar capacity. Just curious really. Like I said, it's always been faster than that for me in the small 30's but I don't doubt you a bit. Just curious about bore diameter being the cause mostly. It may well explain wht the burn rate charts are so different than what I've seen in use.
 
The main problem is the 17.5 twist. It wont allow for even every 110gr bullet by the calculators.
Your still off, part of the problem is Quickload, and most likely you didn’t customize the settings. Or my version is way different than yours.

In my version the 30-223 is not full length 223 necked up. It’s closer to 300 Whisper case length at 1.376”. And a max pressure of 46412 psi. Case capacity 25 grains water.

By changing the settings to case length 1.760” and I used a guess of 33 grains water weight, your 23 grain of 296, was only 85% density and pressure was 49000. You’re leaving a lot of potential on the table if those numbers are close.

First unless your using a rifle with a week action, there’s no reason to run pressures that low. 55,000 psi -60,000 psi is no problem for the cartridge.

My experience with 296 is that at 85% density, accuracy will suck. No surprise you had flyers. This is where the slower powders might be helpful.

But more specifics are needed, Oso, just asked about your reamer, specs would be really helpful. And also what’s is maximum cartridge length you can load, are you restricted to normal 223 length of 2.26”
reamer is just a 0 freebore neck up of 223 reamer. At jam length usually runs about 2.150oal velocity was right up around the expected 2800fps. LC brass. The spread is big enough to make me question the chrono though see 75fps on about all the loads tested. At just over 24gr 296 i had a primer fall out, was the brass improperly decrimped? possably but that was also right up at max by QL I use a syringe to fill empty case and get right at 32.2 gr water when full level in said lc brass
 
The main problem is the 17.5 twist. It wont allow for even every 110gr bullet by the calculators.

reamer is just a 0 freebore neck up of 223 reamer. At jam length usually runs about 2.150oal velocity was right up around the expected 2800fps. LC brass. The spread is big enough to make me question the chrono though see 75fps on about all the loads tested. At just over 24gr 296 i had a primer fall out, was the brass improperly decrimped? possably but that was also right up at max by QL I use a syringe to fill empty case and get right at 32.2 gr water when full level in said lc brass
Sounds like max or a bit more for that brass.
 

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