Need scope advice from the experts

[p-man]

I am an experienced hunter, shooter, and handloader but I do not have any experience in competition or long-range target rifles and related optics. My nephew is interested in working his way into this and has already acquired an accurized Rem 700 308 with a 26" 5R barrel in what I believe is a 1x10 twist.

1) For the 308 caliber, what is the normal working range limits for target shooting beginners to expect - 600 yards?

2) Also, given the 10 twist, what weight range bullets, do you suggest that we load for the range expectation from question 1?

3) I am trying to find him an entry level VARIABLE scope in the $500-$600 range with mildot reticle, target knobs, etc. Could you guys give me suggestions as to the maximum, PRACTICAL magnification he would need, also in regards to the range limitations you advise in question 1.

4) His rifle already has Leupold (what I call Redfield-type) steel bases and 1" rings - if I go with a 1" scope, should I get him the picatinny-type mounting system? Showing my ignorance, but what is the advantage with that system? More leeway in fore and aft mounting?

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience and hard-gained knowledge.

 

[XTR]

I'm going to assume you are talking about shooting F-TR and not "any-any" high power with a sling and coat.

First if you are going to shoot in organized matched you/he should read the rules. Link to NRA rule book

F class is a category of High Power and all the rules apply, what's different is spelled out in section 22.

1) For the 308 caliber, what is the normal working range limits for target shooting beginners to expect - 600 yards?

That is more dependent on your ranges and ammo than anything else. My very first shot at 1000 yards on on the paper. I was stoked! If you have the range he can shoot at pretty much any distance. Become one with the JBM online ballistic calculator, it will get you on the target every time at pretty much any range. In fact when you put in good data it's usually w/i one click on your scope.

2) Also, given the 10 twist, what weight range bullets, do you suggest that we load for the range expectation from question 1?

To start at 1000 I'd suggest loading the 175 SMK or the Hornady 178s (both 178s work). Which ever you can find cheaper. Berger 185s are great but cost 40% more and only get you a couple of inches on the target. For every day use the others are a better bargain. In competition where the top 10 places are separated by 3 or 4 points and X count then yea, use the Bergers. Use Varget and get the MV up to at least the mid 2600s. (the bullet needs to stay super sonic all the way to 1000)

3) I am trying to find him an entry level VARIABLE scope in the $500-$600 range with mildot reticle, target knobs, etc. Could you guys give me suggestions as to the maximum, PRACTICAL magnification he would need, also in regards to the range limitations you advise in question 1.

You don't have to have a variable, and you do NOT need a ranging reticle. I think the most used reticle by F class shooters it probably the NF NP-2DD. Anything with a fine X, a target dot, or an X-Dot is going to be your best bet. The rings on the target are all 1MOA bigger than the last, you can look at the marker and tell exactly how far from the POA you were, there is no need for a reticle with hashes or dots.

There is the "buy once, cry once" approach, in which I'd say go ahead and get a NF 32 or 42 and be done with it. But if you want to go the other route you may want to get something other than a variable. A Weaver T-24 or T-36 could work for starters. If you can find a good price on just about anything with MOA adjustments and high magnification it should work. It would be nice if the clicks actually moved the POI the 1/4 or 1/8 MOA that you think you adjusted for (which is a lot of why the expensive scopes are) I almost never dial my NF off of it's highest power except when the mirage gets so bad it's like looking through a dirty aquarium. Magnification is good. More is better till the mirage makes soup.

4) His rifle already has Leupold (what I call Redfield-type) steel bases and 1" rings - if I go with a 1" scope, should I get him the picatinny-type mounting system? Showing my ignorance, but what is the advantage with that system? More leeway in fore and aft mounting?

If you are going to shoot a 308 to 1000 yards you will probably find that you need some kind of base with some elevation built in so that you can get out to 1000 yards. From a 100 yard zero he will need close to 36MOA of up adjustment, if your scope runs out of up before you can dial to 36 then you need to get a rail. I run a 30MOA rail on my TR rifle.

 

[ShootDots]

XTR gave you some very relevant advice... However, having said that, I have been shooting F-Open for a bit over 2 years now and have drawn some conclusions. Like you, I was a LONG TIME handloader / shooter. I was always a "ballistics head" and had extensive experience shooting VERY accurate hunting rifles at "relatively" long range. I am also a .308 fan. F-TR people can only shoot .223 or .308.. I have alot of .308 experience and consider it one of the most accurate cartridges around. Now with all that being said to "set the stage" for my humble opinion, I would start out at 300 and 600 yards, which is where the .308 shines pretty good. Once you get decent at those ranges, 1000 yards will be more "tolerable"..

You have a 1-10 twist barrel which will handle almost anything you put down the barrel. With that in mind I would try shooting the Berger 185 Hybrids and drive them with either RL-15 or Varget. Also use Lapua Palma brass.. That brass can withstand alot more pressure than "Large Rifle Primer Brass" and you will not loosen the primers nearly as quickly as L/R primers..

Since you have a .308 already, you can shoot F-TR OR F-Open. I would start with F-Open. I personally think F-TR is more difficult.

As far as a scope is concerned, buy a NEW Sightron SIII 8-32 with a 1/8th dot. It is just over 800.00 bucks and in my opinion Sightron gives the "most bang for the buck"... Also you will want a 20moa picatinny style rail.

At any rate, I hope this helps you out somewhat..

 

[XTR]

I was answering the "what's the limit" part of the question. Is 600 easier, sure, but there is no reason not to go to 1000 either.

I'm not sure I understand the recommendation to shoot F-Open with a 308, that's like entering a NASCAR in a F1 race. Shooting a 308 with any bullet against a 7RSAUM with 1/2 the wind drift is not a good matchup.

I agree on the Sightron, the 10-50 is what I was going to go to this yr but I couldn't imagine using anything but an NP-2DD reticle so I stayed with NF.

I would recommend against spending the $$ for Bergers of any design till you have a couple of thousand shots on target. I shoot Bergers at regionals, nationals, and state championships, the rest of the time I shoot 178s. I just can't justify the cost for club matches. (~27/box vs ~47/box)

RL-15 is far more temperature sensitive than Varget. Stick with Varget. I would wager that a wide majority of the TR shooters on the line at the nationals were shooting Varget. Maybe someday you'll want to try something different, but to start out, it works.

 

[Steve Blair]

You don't have to have a variable, and you do NOT need a ranging reticle. I think the most used reticle by F class shooters it probably the NF NP-2DD. Anything with a fine X, a target dot, or an X-Dot is going to be your best bet. The rings on the target are all 1MOA bigger than the last, you can look at the marker and tell exactly how far from the POA you were, there is no need for a reticle with hashes or dots.

[br]
The only exception to the 1 MOA rule is the X-ring and 10 on F-Class targets. Obviously, there is only ½ MOA difference between them. It is also important to note that 1 MOA difference refers to diameter. Each successive ring (except X-10) represents ½ MOA windage. [br]
Reticles are a personal choice. Maybe at ranges where the rings are always visible, a little dot or something will work fine. Where you cannot see the scoring rings, somewhat less useful. I use the NP-R1 and have found the hash marks helpful on western ranges with heavy mirage and rapidly changing conditions. Heavy mirage is also a condition when a variable scope can help. I've gone down to 20X in an attempt to see something besides a black blob at 1000. But, 42X is very nice on cool mornings.

 

[FroggyOne2]

I still think that F-Class TR should have to also use "iron sights".

 

[ShootDots]

I was not being critical at all of your suggestions XTR... On the contrary, I hoped the reader would listen closely to what you were saying. The only reason I said to start with F-Open is that F-TR, for a NEW shooter, could become a bit frustrating... Personally, I have shot my 308 in F-Open with great success. Certainly there are better options, however, he already has a 308. I was thinking of his "newness" and I was hoping to make things just a bit easier, by suggesting F-Open. At 300 and 600 yards he will notice very little disadvantage. However, at 1000 yards to a "newbie" 1000 yards can get frustrating. I shoot 1000 in F-Open with a 6.5 X 284 and am still in the "expert" category after more than 2 years.. In the 300-600 ranges, I shoot H/M... It is simply my opinion that with a 308, till he gets "used to" longer ranges, he MAY be better off starting there (300-600) for the time being>>>that's all...

 

[Steve Blair]

Benjamin has it right on this point. I always recommend that new shooters start with 600 yard matches. The wind is less of a problem, no worry about bullet velocity in .308, and there is still nothing easy about shooting good scores at 600. Once they have a feel for the requirements and shoot reasonably consistent scores, it may be time to try 1000. [br]
We also shoot Mid Range and Long Range on separate ranges. The 600 yard line at Range 103 is fairly conventional, winds tend to be lateral and the flags and mirage are relatively honest. Range 117, where we shoot Long Range, is none of those.

 

[FroggyOne2]

LOL!

 

[XTR]

I still think that F-Class TR should have to also use "iron sights".

: You actually resent the fact that it even exists, don't you?

Heheh, caught the wrong fish, throw that one back. 8)

 

[FroggyOne2]

Keep thinking that I actually think that way..

 

[p-man]

Great advice - thanks all.