Need advice from all you .308WIN experts!

[stinnett1981]

I just received my first custom/semi custom rifle 2 weeks ago. Its a trued Rem 700 SA .308win with a Bartlein 5R MTU contour 1/10 twist finished at 24" and its bedded in a H&S precision stock. I shoot from a Harris bi-pod and a rear bag (leather Protector) in prone and bench position. Im new to the .308win caliber and im not use to the recoil. It doesnt bother me, im simply just not use to it :-\ I have shot the rifle 149 times so far and all my groups been Sub MOA. My issue is.... im not getting very many sub .5 MOA groups.. All my shooting been at 100 yards besides one day last week I shot it at 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards and all my groups was around .75 MOA. Hopefully I can blame the weather for not getting any sub .5 MOA groups because that day the wind was 25mph with 35mph gust that was changing from west to north rapidly all day long! Pretty intense!

The ONLY bullet, powder, primer and cases I have used is the 175 grain Sierra Matchking, Varget powder, Winchester primers and Winchester cases. I use a Redding body die, Lee collet die and a Lee seater die. The only seating depth I tried is .015" off rifling. My freebore is .080". So when I load a 175 grain SMK .015" off rifling my COAL is 2.805". My charges been from 40 grains of Varget up to 44.7 grains. I need to test again! from 43 grains to 44.7 grains they all look the same. Next time im gonna take some good pics and send them to Erik Cortina's "100 yard load development" thread and see what he thinks about it!

At 100 yards with a 175 grain Sierra Matchking should I not worry about getting sub .5 MOA groups? That bullet is a LONG range bullet correct? If I want sub .5 MOA groups at 100 yards I need a lighter FLAT BASE bullet like the 150 grain Berger flat base target bullets. Is that correct?

My BIG QUESTION is about how to hold a .308win! Like I said im not use to the recoil. I noticed my bullets POI will change DRAMATICALLY when using little to no shoulder pressure THEN CHANGING to a firm hold and my shoulder pushed tightly into the rifle stock butt Im very use to shooting my .223 and I always very lightly leaned my shoulder into the rifle stock butt and had good results of this. Can you guys please give me details about why the bullets POI changes when I change our type of grip, hold and shoulder pressure!

Also can you experts give me details about HOW to tightly hold a rifle and apply shoulder pressure. When holding and apply shoulder pressure are you guys pulling the rifle into you shoulders OR are you guys leaning into the rifle? Im right handed so my left hand is place back toward my right arm pit. Are you guys grabbing the fore arm of the rifle or not?

Like I said guys im getting pretty good results, BUT THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT!!!!!!!

THANKS to all of you guys that will respond and help me out in advance!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

You have a lot of questions there. I have shot a few thousand rounds of 308 in competition - I even travel to matches, so I'm just a journeyman....

Your hold technique will be unique to you and the rifle. What does the rifle like? How do you get the best, and most consistent results?

As for changes in impact point from changes in pressures against the gun - that's totally normal. The trick is to do it EXACTLY the same each and every shot. For newer shooters, I advise to push into the bipod lightly on hard surfaces, and dig the feet in a touch on softer surfaces. Your shooting technique must adapt to the surface you are firing from.

For load development, you are probably seeing pretty good results right at the top end. That is where all of my 24" barrels have shot well. That said, I wouldn't worry too much about groups until your performance on the rifle settles in.

.5 MOA is a heck of a goal. Consider this: If the top F/TR rifle shooters in the country could consistently shoot .5MOA at say, 300 yards, wouldn't the national record be 200-20X+?

Keep practicing,
Keith

 

[jr600yd]

+1 for what bus driver came up with. As for loads, I never got the best groups from Winchester primers. I've found them to be a little soft and will pierce more than other brands when max loads are approached. That said they do well with midrange loads. Try CCI, Tula primers you may be surprised.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I just received my first custom/semi custom rifle 2 weeks ago. Its a trued Rem 700 SA .308win with a Bartlein 5R MTU contour 1/10 twist finished at 24" and its bedded in a H&S precision stock. I shoot from a Harris bi-pod and a rear bag (leather Protector) in prone and bench position. Im new to the .308win caliber and im not use to the recoil. It doesnt bother me, im simply just not use to it :-\ I have shot the rifle 149 times so far and all my groups been Sub MOA. My issue is.... im not getting very many sub .5 MOA groups.. All my shooting been at 100 yards besides one day last week I shot it at 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards and all my groups was around .75 MOA. Hopefully I can blame the weather for not getting any sub .5 MOA groups because that day the wind was 25mph with 35mph gust that was changing from west to north rapidly all day long! Pretty intense!
(snip)

I'm not even sure why you are asking for help from us mere mortals. If you get .75MOA all day long up to 600 yards in a wind condition such as you described, with a 24 inch .308 and SMKs, you should go over to Sniper's Hide and tell the world about it and maybe somebody will see your .75MOA and raise (lower) you another .25 MOA but with an 18 inch barreled rifle at 1000 yards in a hurricane.

35mph gusts will tip over cows and make it difficult for people to walk properly; at 35MPH, we are in tropical depression area. The difference between 25MPH and 35MPH of wind at 600 yards with your setup is the difference between 80 inches (13.2 MOA) deflection and 115 inches (18.3MOA) but yet you were able to shoot groups of under 5 inches at 600 yards in those conditions. And this while discovering that variations in your hold had some influence on the point of impact. Throw in the fast 90 degree switches you mentioned and you are one wind-reading dude!

I can't tell the difference in wind much above 15MPH, it all seems strong to me and the wind flags are usually pointing almost straight up at that point. I would be impressed if I could hit the target reliably in such intense switching conditions as you describe, and I'm taking the big four foot by four foot target board.

 

[XTR]

Busdriver pretty much covered most of it.

Your rifle may be capable of .5s, you are not yet. That will take trigger time.

SMKs are very tolerant of jumping. Even if you experimented I doubt you'd see a difference in .015 or .030.

Seeing differences in loads you need to push the range out, probably to 300 yards. I've done initial load testing at 200 but I always take it out to 300 and 600 to prove the initial results. I've gotten answers at 200 that turned out not to work at longer range.

Oh yea, if it's blowing 25-35 I'm not going shooting. You probably can't even keep the targets in the frames at that kind of wind.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Take a class in windspeed reading... ;D

 

[stinnett1981]

Thanks guys. I will work on my grip and shoulder pressure. I will figure out a way to get it consistent. I have a bunch of Rem large rifle primers too. I will try those instead of the Win primers I been using.

Fyi I shot 50 rounds that day in the wind. It was from 100 yards to 500 yards. I didnt shoot at 600 yards. I shot 10 rounds at each distance 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500. I dont know why i thought and said i shot at 600 yards??? Anyway I was shooting directly to the north. The wind was coming from the north and changing to a NNW wind. No 90 degree changes in wind direction. Sorry I should of been more clear instead of saying from the west. I remember at 500 yards with a zero at 100 yards I had the scope doped .4 mils (4 clicks) left and I had 2.4 mils (24 clicks) up. My horizontal spread at 500 yards was only 2 inches, but my vertical was over 4 inches! My target is a big wooden stand that weighs 40lbs. I dont shoot at a range. I have my own property. With you guys saying my groups in that type of wind was amazing im now EXCITED to go back out there with no wind and see how good of groups I can shoot! Thanks again!

 

[brian427cobra]

IMHO the stock is your problem, but it's a simple fix, there is a hollow cavity in the butt stock, remove your crappy recoil pad, and fill that cavity with lead shot mixed in 5 minute epoxy, then install a better recoil pad like I did.

The extra weight in the butt balances out the weapon, combine that with the new recoil pad and 200 rounds of prone shooting becomes an enjoyable experience.

 

[stinnett1981]

IMHO the stock is your problem, but it's a simple fix, there is a hollow cavity in the butt stock, remove your crappy recoil pad, and fill that cavity with lead shot mixed in 5 minute epoxy, then install a better recoil pad like I did.

The extra weight in the butt balances out the weapon, combine that with the new recoil pad and 200 rounds of prone shooting becomes an enjoyable experience.

Interesting! How much weight of lead shot did you add? What brand of recoil pad did you use. Hope to hear back from you.

 

[M14AMU]

I'd like to politely call.......BS on your post!!

 

[brian427cobra]

I never weighed it, but I know that it didn't weigh as much as my MCM A5 with sniper fill, the recoil pad was a med grind to fit Limb Saver, I had to use the grind to fit because of the HSP PSS stock, I think Limb Saver makes a direct fit for plano HSP stocks but not the PSS.

 

[stinnett1981]

I never weighed it, but I know that it didn't weigh as much as my MCM A5 with sniper fill, the recoil pad was a med grind to fit Limb Saver, I had to use the grind to fit because of the HSP PSS stock, I think Limb Saver makes a direct fit for plano HSP stocks but not the PSS.

well I did some research about adding a little weight to the stock on heavy barreled rifles to level them out. It seems like a very common thing. I will definitely try it out.

 

[Shynloco]

stinnett,
Congrats on the new rig. Hope she turns out to be everything you expected. And looks like you are getting plenty of advice on the stock and holding it. Since I don't shoot F/TR, but shoot strictly Benchrest these days, I'll pass along something I've learned over the years in shooting my .308. And this came from both from my personal experienced WITH MY PARTICULAR RIFLE as well as advice directly from Sierra in terms of bullet weight. When shooting 100 - 200 yds, I load the 168 gr HPTB. Anything beyond that distance gets you better accuracy with the 175 Gr HPBT. And depending the temps, I use either Varget, RE15 or IMR 4895, all three of which get me excellent results and grouping @ 100 yds. Since you mentioned shooting 100 yds (which is what I do mostly) I load to 42 gr (- or + a few .01 gr depending on the powder). The only thing I've found different from my .308 Benchrest rifle compared to all my other Benchrest setups, the .308 is the only one that likes "the jump" and the other three calibers like just touching the lands or a jam. My .308 HATES the jam and responds very poorly. But for whatever it may be worth, I measure my finished cartridges by the Ojive which show 3.254 (2.828 OAL) for the Sierra 168 gr HPBT. Good luck and enjoy that new baby!

Alex

 

[gsg5pk]

Within 200 yards, I found that 168 SMK out perform than 175 SMK.


Here is my 5 shots group at 200 yards with my FTR rifle.

LB Tactical Recon Bolt Rifle w/ 24" Bull Barrel 1:10" tw

http://instagram.com/p/fH1RgTPBLn/

 

[stinnett1981]

Well I think I found a good node for the 175g smk's and Varget. It likes a warmer load. I shot it again yesterday and increased my load up to 45 grains. I shot several groups at 44g, 44.5g 44.7g and 45 grains. The 44.7 and 45 shot great. 3 of the 8 groups was under .5moa at 100 yards. Both the 45 grain loads was a little more than .4moa. Its a warmer load, but if it shots that what I will stick to. I know thats right at max, but I seen no signs of pressure. I concentrated very hard on my shoulder pressure and im sure that helped out. I put one of those Karsten cheek rest on the H&S stock. Before with a perfect cheek weld I wasnt getting a good line of sight through the scope. I had to place my jaw on the stock to see through the scope instead of using my cheek. Now with the Karsten cheek rest I have a perfect cheek weld and line of sight. That possibly could of helped my groups too :-\ Who knows ??? There is so many variables that one can only get better by simply shooting more and figuring out what works on your own. Now im gonna go back out to my ground and do some long distance testing. Hopefully I can get the same results at longer distances!