need help to identify cartridge maybe 6.5-257 roberts 6.5x57 ??

[evodrone]

I (some time ago) inherited my grandfather's rifle. I have shot through 18/20 rounds of ammo i had many years ago. Unfortunately I do not have the used brass Measuring the 2 rounds I have left leaves me bewildered.
The barrel is labeled 6.5mm
my measurements are close but not identical to 6.5x57
I'm hoping that it is 6.5-257 Roberts (not that I can find ANY of that for sale) but i can not find the dimensions ANYWHERE.
I'm not sure that the rifle isn't 6.5x57 just modified to run 100 grain rounds instead or perhaps the die was slightly lower than should have been? was it just "close enough" back in 1969?
The ammo box is labeled: "52 GRS H-414 w/ 100 GR PTD-SPCh 9-21-69"
(similar load in the 260 rem gives around 3100fps barrel velocity )
the rounds have 2 different labels (formed from different brass) "Super Speed 8mm MAUSER" and "FA 60 MATCH"
Ok my measurements:

A) .470" (identical to 6.5x57 according to Hornady 9th ed 2012)
B) .468 (identical to 6.5x57)
C) ?
D) .431 (identical to 6.5x57)
E) .300-.295 (each of the 2 rounds measure slightly different)(6.5x57 should be .301)
F) 1.73-1.74 (6.5x57 should be 1.75)
G) 2.91 (identical to 6.5x57)
Length to point G - 1.875-1.890 (6.5x57 should be 1.941)
H) 2.17 (6.5x57 should be 2.222-2.232)

Ok I don't have much experience handloading but I do have a press that I haven't used since I was supervised as a child.

I DO NOT have the dies for this round. I would like to be able to just buy ammo; 6.5x57 as is somewhat inexpensive just with heavier bullets (131 and 139 gr) at slower velocities. But the differences make me think that this is not the correct round.

If I had the correct brass I would load up some more some day and would like to know which are the correct dies to make these rounds from 8mm brass or 30-06

 

[savagedasher]

I would get the chamber core safe and see if your brass is the same. Larry

 

[jonbearman]

What is the rifle made from, such as a mauser or an arisaka(jap rifle), or what? Was it originally military? What does the bolt face measure? It very well could be some wildcat that someone made many moons ago.

 

[evodrone]

I am not sure what type of bolt action it is.
the only visable markings on the action are "Made in England" on one side and BNP below a small crown on the other (english proof mark i believe).

The barrel is marked "Bliss Titus 6.5mm"

also on the plastic ammo box is written souper8 - could that be the wildcat name if thats what it is but i assumed it was the brass it was made from is all.
I believe my grandfather and his father were able gunsmiths-well I know my greatgrandfather was-not sure who did the work to make it seems like it would mak a nice deer rifle if i can get/make more ammo!

 

[mr45man]

google Bliss Titus 6.5mm
Some good reading .

 

[Dans40X]

Have an experienced 'smith cerrosafe(cast) the chamber to acquire the much needed measurements.

Anything else is just a guess!!

 

[Toolbreaker]

I used the numbers you gave for base-to-shoulder and base-to-neck, then crunched the numbers for dimension "C" and came up with an included shoulder angle of ~49*. With some Googling, the 6.5x57 Mauser shows to have an included angle of 37.5*. Quite a bit different. With these dimensions, yours looks a little more like the 6.5x55 Swede.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/6_5x55%20Swedish.pdf

Given how difficult it can be to get an accurate dimension to the shoulder transition points (radii of the corners) on the brass, the numbers could be off quite a bit. I'd think you'd be better off doing as the others said in getting the chamber cast.

 

[bheadboy]

The FA 60 Match indicates that the original case was a 30- 06 Frankfort arsenal from 1960 match ammo. I have some so marked from that era.

the result you have indicates the case was reformed and shortened.

Bob

 

[Ggmac]

I second Dans recommendation. Many , many wildcats were out . You have most of the info , Bliss Titus was a great barrel maker and wildcatter. His 270 bliss Titus was based on the 300 savage case . Be careful not to hot rod old guns !
Is the rear of the receiver split , so the bolt handle can pass thru ? Does it have a bolt release on the back left that is rectangular?

 

[evodrone]

google Bliss Titus 6.5mm
Some good reading .

Yeah, I did that and I agree! I wonder if my grandfathers were friends of the Titus family as they had similar interests and lived in the same areas!

I used the numbers you gave for base-to-shoulder and base-to-neck, then crunched the numbers for dimension "C" and came up with an included shoulder angle of ~49*. With some Googling, the 6.5x57 Mauser shows to have an included angle of 37.5*. Quite a bit different. With these dimensions, yours looks a little more like the 6.5x55 Swede.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/6_5x55%20Swedish.pdf

Given how difficult it can be to get an accurate dimension to the shoulder transition points (radii of the corners) on the brass, the numbers could be off quite a bit. I'd think you'd be better off doing as the others said in getting the chamber cast.

Thanks, this is what I wasn't able to do.

The FA 60 Match indicates that the original case was a 30- 06 Frankfort arsenal from 1960 match ammo. I have some so marked from that era.

the result you have indicates the case was reformed and shortened.

Bob

Again thanks for the info, I also read on another page about making 6.5x57 that it could be made from either 8mm or 30-06 brass - It appears the 2 are very similar.

I second Dans recommendation. Many , many wildcats were out . You have most of the info , Bliss Titus was a great barrel maker and wildcatter. His 270 bliss Titus was based on the 300 savage case . Be careful not to hot rod old guns !
Is the rear of the receiver split , so the bolt handle can pass thru ? Does it have a bolt release on the back left that is rectangular?

I am not sure if the rear of the receiver is split. The bolt release (safety) is rectangular but on the right side.
I will try to post up some photos later today.

As for hot rodding old guns... I'd just like more ammo so I could use it. This is quickly turning into a rather complicated task. Apparently the ammo was hot-rodded from the get-go!

My gunsmith (neighbor) hasn't been around during the holidays while I've finally had time to work on it. I'll see about getting the chamber cast.

 

[evodrone]

I know this post is old, but I wanted to follow up to thank everyone for their help and comments -

The rifle is chambered in what is known as 6.5 Souper.

Not sure how many of you will be interested in the rest but this is what I've put together:
My grandfather was P.F. Lambert who worked as a supervisor in the Small Arms Research branch of the D.O.D. ~1945 and was in charge of the development of the 7.62x51 NATO. He then recommended to Winchester to standardize both the .308 (identical to the 7.62x51 NATO specs) and the .243 win. P.F. Lambert specially made rifles with his custom stock, an english made action, and Bliss Titus barrel.

Several "souper" rounds were developed by Lambert, which were basically necked down versions of .308 (although all the rounds I have are actually 30-06 or 8mm brass), the 25 Souper being the 25-08 still in use today, the 6.5 souper becomming (as far as I can tell the "original") 6.5-08 (with dies apparently available from Redding?), however, there are several different 6.5-.308 which is what makes it confusing.
P.F. Lambert (at the time) claimed his rounds were the most efficient design (backed by his research and extensive testing at the D.O.D.)

Anyways, it took some time to put all that together, maybe someone will appreciate it, and I certainly appreciate everyone that commented earlier, thank-you.

 

[CaptainMal]

Good story and follow-up. Now load some up and use it.

Enjoy.