Need help identifying primer failure

[wkndwarrior]

This type of failure is a first for me, any guidance is appreciated.

I was out shooting a new-to-me BSA Martini in 17 Ackley Bee and the action jammed up. I had to remove the scope and tap on the block to get it to drop. I was expecting the firing pin to be stuck and broken or something similar but the firing pin is in tact and no apparent issues with the action/block.

The primer of the last fired round looks like it has a broken pin in it though, and looks ok on the inside. This was round 16 through the rifle and a very low charge. See attached pictures, can anyone tell what's going on here? Thank you

 

[charlie b]

I had that happen before. The firing pin had pierced the primer, punching a hole. When the round went off the 'plug' of primer material was forced back in the hole. Looked just like yours. I didn't notice it at the time. Then I had another primer pierced after that and the little chunk of primer got inside the bolt and jammed the firing pin. That caused me to look at the others in more detail.

 

[Rook 6]

I have not had any experience with what a pierced primer looks like but it seems plausible. It appears all of your primers are heavily cratered, which indicates to me that the pressure was getting up there. I wouldn’t think the crater lip would be enough itself to keep the block from falling but maybe? Either way, the solution is probably to back the charge down some.

 

[Old Navy]

This type of failure is a first for me, any guidance is appreciated.

I was out shooting a new-to-me BSA Martini in 17 Ackley Bee and the action jammed up. I had to remove the scope and tap on the block to get it to drop. I was expecting the firing pin to be stuck and broken or something similar but the firing pin is in tact and no apparent issues with the action/block.

The primer of the last fired round looks like it has a broken pin in it though, and looks ok on the inside. This was round 16 through the rifle and a very low charge. See attached pictures, can anyone tell what's going on here? Thank you


View attachment 1674532View attachment 1674533View attachment 1674534View attachment 1674535View attachment 1674536

That was a seriously cratered primer that was sheared off when you forced the gun open. It needs to be bushed but I don't know if the guys here can do that.

 

[Chilly807]

I just went through the same thing with a 223. Check the barrel for restriction from carbon and copper buildup, this will drive pressure in the barrel up and a previously safe load starts blanking primers.

 

[wkndwarrior]

Thanks guys, I've never seen primers flow back that much and didn't really even consider that. It sounds like it may be an issue with this type of rifle though. I don't really know what the primers are - it came with some roughly formed and loaded ammo that I broke down and loaded with my own charges. Maybe I'll try BR primers before getting too spun up. If that doesn't work, anyone know an affordable gunsmith for bushing a martini cadet?

 

[Chilly807]

A couple other possibilities.. you said a "very low charge". If there's not enough powder in the case, you can get a secondary detonation where the flame front flashes over the top of the powder lying in the bottom of the case, causing it to burn much faster than it normally would. Some loading manuals warn against using charges lower than their recommended minimums for this reason, others don't.

Another possibility is it was a primer never designed for that kind of cartridge. A Remington 6 1/2 comes to mind, they're recommended for low pressure loads like 22 Hornet for example.

Since the primers are an unknown in this situation, that's the first place I'd look if everything else is kosher.
Try loading some rounds with known good primers, starting at the low end of the recommended charge range and see what happens.

Also have a look in the barrel for carbon and copper buildup in the first 6 inches of the barrel if you have a borescope.

 

[Bronsin]

From what I can see of it, having the firing pin bushed so it's centered and a close fit will fix most of the issue. I would also check the headspace by measuring the shoulder on the brass you fired vs what you have loaded. Being as it's a custom chamber, the Smith that chambered it may have run it in too far for the rim to properly locate the case. Long story short, I loaded the wrong primer in some revolver ammo and decided to just fire them instead of putting them back in the press to get them out. The fired primer wedged itself against the breach and forced the rim against the cylinder, locking it up tight as a drum.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Primers ARE cratered!! First thought? Brass too small (short) for the chamber (brass headspace, NOT chamber/barrel issue)
Primer goes BANG, case tries to move back in the chamber (just enough) and primer gets pierced.
If fired brass will re chamber with no restrictions, neck size, reload and go shooting.

 

[Rook 6]

A couple other possibilities.. you said a "very low charge". If there's not enough powder in the case, you can get a secondary detonation where the flame front flashes over the top of the powder lying in the bottom of the case, causing it to burn much faster than it normally would. Some loading manuals warn against using charges lower than their recommended minimums for this reason, others don't.

Another possibility is it was a primer never designed for that kind of cartridge. A Remington 6 1/2 comes to mind, they're recommended for low pressure loads like 22 Hornet for example.

Since the primers are an unknown in this situation, that's the first place I'd look if everything else is kosher.
Try loading some rounds with known good primers, starting at the low end of the recommended charge range and see what happens.

Also have a look in the barrel for carbon and copper buildup in the first 6 inches of the barrel if you have a borescope.

Good call out. Missed the low charge comment.

 

[dellet]

Since you don’t seem to know what the primers are, you’re just spinning your wheels. Yes they are cratered, you said it was a mild load, and the corners of the primers reflect that.

It’s not uncommon to use small pistol primers in any of the 32-20 based cartridges, often for single shots it’s almost required for consistency in ignition. If whoever you got those from was also a single shot or hammer rifle shooter they might Remington 1 1/2’s. I use those myself in actions that are weak for that exact reason. With a poor fitting firing pin, they look like yours as early as 25,000 psi.

Start with a known small rifle or magnum pistol primer and try again.

The Martini action is a bit odd. It’s not a true falling block because the block does not pivot away from the barrel. It’s not a true dropping block because it’s on a pivot. So it will smear any metal that flows into the firing pin hole.

Something you can try is before extraction, dry fire once, if the problem goes away, it’s because the primer has been re seated. This is another low pressure rimmed cartridge issue. The primer backed out to zero headspace, so the action binds when you try to open in. The cure is higher pressure.

At low pressure the primer backs out, but there is not enough pressure to slip the case back to reset the the primer. The case walls are stuck to the chamber. When the case resets the primer, you have the original head space again, and the primer crater wont smear.

Hope that all makes some sense. It can be counter intuitive

 

[Webster]

This type of failure is a first for me, any guidance is appreciated.

I was out shooting a new-to-me BSA Martini in 17 Ackley Bee and the action jammed up. I had to remove the scope and tap on the block to get it to drop. I was expecting the firing pin to be stuck and broken or something similar but the firing pin is in tact and no apparent issues with the action/block.

The primer of the last fired round looks like it has a broken pin in it though, and looks ok on the inside. This was round 16 through the rifle and a very low charge. See attached pictures, can anyone tell what's going on here? Thank you


View attachment 1674532View attachment 1674533View attachment 1674534View attachment 1674535View attachment 1674536

Don't have a clue, but you never mentioned using a bump gauge. As long as the case chambers easily the shoulder shouldn't be pushed back.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Was it a .22 LR converted to centerfire?

 

[tommeboy]

Switch to a Win SR primer and see if it goes away. I can not use CCI in my 223 because of the thinner cups.

 

[wkndwarrior]

I'll share some more information including back story that may answer some questions/comments. Purchasing this rifle has been an emotional event for me and by far the worst gunbroker purchase I've made.

I'll start with a warning for gunbroker buyers: I bought this rifle and paid over going rates because it's absolutely beautiful, from most angles. It came and I immediately noticed bluing loss on a section on the barrel that was cleverly excluded from pictures. I got it home and put a light through the barrel - dirty as hell. I cleaned it and scoped it - rust. This seller was unbelievable, he had shipped it loose in a cardboard box wrapped in dirty/greasy t-shirts and rags and with the live ammo and a busted cleaning rod also bouncing around. No paperwork. I thought my FFL was going to fire me, but after obtaining a copy of an expired drivers license from the seller he processed it. I've actually had luck over the years in buying custom rifles from private sellers at great prices when they don't have a ton of pictures (scares other buyers off) and this guy had like 300+ positive only reviews so it was a calculated risk. I let him know my displeasure and he blasted me telling me how fortunate I was to get such a great deal on this rifle. I left an honest and factual review on his GB and he responded to it with inappropriate comments and put my personal information in his public response and in a review against me. When I contacted gunbroker, I asked that they modify his reviews to remove only my personal information - I'm fine with my own negative review if it warns other buyers. This guys tactics worked and GB removed my review altogether. I emailed them afterwards letting them know that I didn't think it was an appropriate action and they did not respond. Just sharing this because, obviously, this guy figured out how to play GB to remove negative reviews and to highlight that gunbroker.com clearly does not care about the buyer.

Back to the rifle: I tried soaking in oil and then running a brush to loosen the rust but eventually ended up using evaporust (carefully) then cleaning the bore with sweets which worked really well. So it's very clean at this point - no rust, copper or fouling. Rifling is still sharp so I planned to run a few hundred rounds through it and foul it back up, hoping that it'll be accurate and fun to shoot.

The brass: It came with over a hundred formed/fireformed cases and loaded ammo. In conversation with the seller before the purchase, he had purchased the brass custom-made from a 'professional' so I expected it to be 'ready to fire'. I never shoot someone else's reloads so I planned to tear them down and load with my own charges. Half of them didn't chamber as-is so I knew they needed to be resized as well. So for tearing them down, I typically use a frankford arsenal pile driver. I love my pile driver. If I want to tear one of my own reloads down, I cycle the pile driver once and it is disassembled. Factory ammo or crimped ammo might take 3 cycles. I had some old ammo with welded necks once, that took up to 7 cycles. This 17 ackley bee ammo took 20 plus cycles per round. I swear they were glued in. I resorted to press mounted bullet puller. The charged were a variety of like three different powders and were so compressed that I had to put them back in the pile driver to dump the powder. Many of the cases already had split necks and I ended up with around 75 cases to work with. I guess, as unbelievable as this experience has been, that I should have just pitched the $10 worth of primers - but I have never had issues with using grab bag primers for fire forming so I didn't even think about it. I set my die to set the shoulder length for a few of the cases that chambered - annealed/resized/cleaned all of the brass.

Anyway, long story but in regards to charges - most sources that I found had recommended 13-14 grains of IMR 4198. The cases shown were 11.7, 11.9 and the one that was stuck was 12.2 grains. I just wanted to start low and work my way up. These cases had all been previously formed and I believe they are sized correctly. I pulled the block again and there's no clearance around the pin that would suggest this needs to be bushed. Pictures attached for those that made it this far.

Not sure if it's the primers as some suggest, or an undercharge. At this point I think I'll tear down a handful of these and load with Remington 7 1/2 BR primers that I have and usually prefer. It may be a while for another update with range time, I started a training program at work and have very little free time for hobby-ing this year (combined with way too many projects like this). Thank you for all of the input!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Hopefully a known thicker primer will be the solution, good luck.

 

[dellet]

Maybe this will give some confidence.

These were shot in a Stevens 44, an action weak enough that when smokeless powder came out, the action was sold in rimfire cartridges only. It’s a true falling block. Basically a lever action rolling block. The breech block pivot away from case head, so no smearing.

Note the primers. This rifle clearly has firing pin clearance problems. But look at the firing pin dent. You can see that the primer was being pushed back out where the pin indentation was made. If it was not for the portion of the crater that is raised, the primer would almost have been flat. That’s a Remington 1 1/2 and probably 20,000 psi



Here is a Remington 5 1/2, same load, same rifle.



Checking headspace wouldn’t hurt, just remember you can’t have any more space than rim, but you can have less depending on how you set the shoulder.

Get your brass sized right, a known primer and a low to mid range load and try again, you’ll likely have a pretty good surprise waiting for you.

 

[trebor244]

This type of failure is a first for me, any guidance is appreciated.

I was out shooting a new-to-me BSA Martini in 17 Ackley Bee and the action jammed up. I had to remove the scope and tap on the block to get it to drop. I was expecting the firing pin to be stuck and broken or something similar but the firing pin is in tact and no apparent issues with the action/block.

The primer of the last fired round looks like it has a broken pin in it though, and looks ok on the inside. This was round 16 through the rifle and a very low charge. See attached pictures, can anyone tell what's going on here? Thank you


View attachment 1674532View attachment 1674533View attachment 1674534View attachment 1674535View attachment 1674536

With the primers cratering or queening, the first suspect is that the charge is too hot.
Check the dimensions of the fired case against SAMI specs and also try to chamber a fired case into the gun. Your headspace may be too excessive or the primers may be wrong (standard vs. magnum).
Eric Cortina has some instructional videos which may also help.
But first reduce your charge and this problem may subside

 

[C.E.Smith043]

With the primers cratering or queening, the first suspect is that the charge is too hot.
Check the dimensions of the fired case against SAMI specs and also try to chamber a fired case into the gun. Your headspace may be too excessive or the primers may be wrong (standard vs. magnum).
Eric Cortina has some instructional videos which may also help.
But first reduce your charge and this problem may subside

You need to read his entire post. He is already under starting minimum. No need to go lower.

 

[Jason D Hostetter]

I'd use CFE BLK and Rem 7 1/2s, it's a killer combination in the 17 Hornady Hornet, and they're relatively similar. Some people load with small pistol primers or Rem 6 1/2s and you get heavy cratering or blanking. If I were to use a small pistol primer, like I do in 22 Hornet with Lilgun, I'd use a CCI 550, as they have a cup similar to most small rifle primers, and will handle 50k+ psi without blanking. I doubt very seriously, you'll ever get enough Imr4198 in that case, to be satisfied. CFE BLK, SW Blackout, AA1680, and AA2200, are really the best options, you can try Imr4227, it'll be accurate, but probably slow.