Need advise with hard to open bolt.

[XBBR Shooter]

I had no ideal you were going to be name dropping on me, Richard Diaz! Again he said the firing pin drove the case, powder and bullet to the front of the chamber and I said "I disagree". And no one spoke up; all they did was spread this 'repeat after me' on all forums. Again, I said I had killer firing pins, I said my firing pins crushed the primer before the case, bullet and powder knew their little buddy, the primer had been crushed. And then there is the assumption the case stretches and I always ask: How can a reloader determine of the case ran to the front of the chamber and back again as you describe?




And then at the end you added the part about the case being wet. So; it is not likely the case takes off for the rear of the chamber and smashes the primer and if the primer backs out it is more likely the appearance of the primer is caused by the primer not being supported in the primer pocket because it backed out and then someone should wonder why the primer is not being supported by the bolt face.
Once the pressure gets high enough, the case either stretches at the web (dry chamber), or the whole case slides back

Click to expand...

I would suggest your call Richard Diaz (Chief Engineer at Remington) and ask him if he can think of another option. I said I disagreed with the firing pin thing driving the case forward, I could never get the pro·lif·ic poster on many forums to consider the primer, it was always the firing pin and nothing happened until the shoulder of the case contacted the shoulder of the chamber and that put the shoulder of the case at the shoulder of the chamber ever time and that left clearance between the case head and bolt face and that does not happen ever time but when it does the case has no choice but to stretch between the case body and case head; unless someone greased their bullets.

I disagree.

F. Guffey

The firing pin does not drive the case forward, the it the priming compound that drives the case (and it's contents) forward.
You can disagree all you want (we all expect that from you).

 

[308Cajun]

I agree with aloreman to what the shoulder is concerned.
I haven't read anyone asking for the lenght of the case.
Have you ever trimmed them? An abnormal extra long case can make the neck to get into the free bore, -or just come too close to it- so it will not allow the neck to expand properly, causing pressure signs and bolt blocking as well.

All were trimmed to 2.005

 

[308Cajun]

From 308CAJUN:
"cleaned the chamber while shooting Varget and it helped."

Helped how? The bolt opened normally? Flattened primers and cratering are not definitive signs of 'too' high pressure. IMO the hard to open bolt is!
In your pic with Varget it looks like a good amount of cratering and since some above responses point to your load being on the high side you would expect it. But that hard to lift bolt is the killer for me.
Have you de-primed a case and tried to install a new primer to see if indeed the primer pocket has enlarged?

You said, " bumping the shoulder too much in full length resizing..."
Did these cases require to have the shoulder 'bumped?' As fguffey stated above about being a fan of cutting down on the case travel...well me too.
Arbitrarily 'bumping' the shoulder from one unknown length to another serves no purpose other than working the brass more and more.
In a bolt action target rifle I can see no reason to move that shoulder at all if the bolt closes nicely on a fired case. It is a perfect fit (thanks to 50,000+ psi) for MY chamber. Then again I am one who will neck size and neck size only enough to secure the particular bullet i am using.
The above is my opinion and what works for me in MY rifles.
Interesting that after you let the rifle cool the bolt functioned to your satisfaction. Bottom line there is a pressure problem that many have covered above.

The cases used were once fired is an AR -10, and required full length resizing before they would chamber. i know they were once fired because I saw the guy firing them, and picked them up at the range. I was probably mistaken in thinking too much full length resizing caused pressure, maybe I was thinking about the flattened primer thing someone else here mentioned. I am probably gong to chalk it up to the heat, given the fact that i have been firing the Varget load for several years in 2 rifles with no previous problems 2 rifles. the CFE 223 load I was working up from a starting load, and had a sticky bolt at all levels. For now i will back off the Varget load, and continue to work up the CFE load. As I said earlier, i am through with RL -15.

 

[308Cajun]

From what I can see in the pictures, it looks like you have some primer cratering and a few ejector marks. My guess is your load is on the hot side, how hot is hard to say without knowing more detail about your chamber/load specifics, the relative burn rate of your lot of Varget, etc. Knowing your velocity would give you a much better idea of where the load is, and also provide a good baseline for comparison of loads in the future. One other question is where in the bolt cycle did you feel difficulty with it? If it is near the end of the upstroke (i.e. above halfway up), that can sometimes mean the base of your cases isn't being sized back down sufficiently. In that case, a small base die may help alleviate the issue. However, I think in your case the most likely issue your load is simply too hot for the conditions.

46.0 Gr Varget, 45.0 RL 15 Federal once fired case, FL sized, Fed 210 primer, all cases trimmed to 2.005, Hornady 168 AMAX in all loads, seated to 2.8". CFE 223 l;ods worked up from 47.0 - 49.0 per Hodgdon data, other wise every thing the same. Varget loads ranged from 2680 - 2714 FPS, CFE 223 from 2700 - 2750. RL 15 was about 2600-2625 (only 5 rounds fired.) The bolt was a little sticky going up, and I could complete the upstroke, but was difficult to open from there, especially with the last RL 15 round fired.

Oh, all rounds seated to 2.800"

 

[6MMsteve]

How can returning a case to minimum length cause high pressure?

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

The firing pin does not drive the case forward,

Where were you? There are bench resters, smiths and reloaders that claim the firing pin strike shortens the case as much as .005"+ from the shoulder to the case head. The same ones claim they have spent years testing and experimenting and some name drop like they throw in an Aberdeen, Maryland once in a while. And then there is no end to the list of long ago and forgotten friends that invented and discovered everything. And then I ask a simple question like: "How would you determine if the case stretched between the case head and case body?" And then' they get angry. I have fired cases with the shoulder of the case so far away from the shoulder of the chamber the shoulder did not make it to the shoulder of the chamber until after the primer was crushed and the cases did not stretch between the case head and case body; and that just made them more angry. And then I add the part about my little experiment, I declared the shoulder did not move, it was about that time they ran out of old friends; but if they could have figured it out they would have invented an old friend that discovered it.

I have killer firing pins, my firing pins crush the primer before the case, powder and bullet know their little buddy the primer has been hit.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

the it the priming compound

You can disagree all you want (we all expect that from you).

Thank you, you will not believe how much effort I put into making every effort when going through the responses "the it the priming compound". I need a little help with part of your response.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

"How would you determine if the case stretched between the case head and case body?"

(we all expect that from you).

If you do not know just say you do not know.

F. Guffey

 

[johnfred1965]

If I wanted to know if the case stretched, I think I would just measure it

 

[fguffey]

If I wanted to know if the case stretched, I think I would just measure it

Er...what? It is possible to determine the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head and at the same time assume it got that way by stretching between the case head and case body. I chambered a round and then closed the bolt on a case that had .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. I pulled the trigger, the case did not stretch between the case head and case body and the shoulder of my case did not move. Reloaders on other forums claim that is too much head space and I claim that is too much clearance; they are under the impression the case has head space; if the case had head space why don't they say that is not enough head space? Or the head space is too short? Anyhow; my cases do not have head space.


I would suggest you measure before and again after firing. XBBR Shooter says:

the it the priming

and then he dropped a name on me calming there was 700 pounds involved; not psi pounds but straight-A-way pounds. And I got to thinking about a 55 gallon barrel full of water weighs close to 458 pounds plus the barrel; and I wondered how high the primer would launch the barrel into the air. After all if the primer produced 700 pounds of straight a way pounds and (if) the barrel full of water weights 498 pounds the primer should manage that with room to spare.

F. Guffey

 

[/VH]

The primer will launch the barrel between 7 & 8.3 tensions; depending upon atmospherics and the barrel will not move.

 

[fguffey]

The primer will launch the barrel between 7 & 8.3 tensions

There is a remote chance I just caught a brake, I am the only one with tension gages and if the primer raised the 500 lb. +/- barrel I could determine by 'how much'.

F. Guffey

 

[fourpower]

View attachment 985003 View attachment 985004 View attachment 985005
46.0 Varget 45.0 RL 15 47-39 CFE 223
I had a first time experience at the range. I had trouble opening the bolt after firing rounds. I fired 3 loads: 1, 45.0 gr RL 15, 168 AMAX; 2, 46.0 Gr Varget, 168 AMAX; 2, CFE 223 47.0 - 49.0 in .5 increments. All cases were once fired Federal, all primers were Fed 210. Cases in loads 1 & 2 were full length resized. Load 3 cases were once fired in my rifle, so were necked sized using Lee Collet die. Temp was 90 degrees. I had difficulty opening the bolt for all loads fired. The worst load was the RL 15 load, which is a max load. The Varget load is also am max load, but 1 I have been shooting for years, both in this rifle ( Marlin X7 308) and a Remington 700, with no problems. CFE 223 is a new load which I was working up. I figure it's 1 of 3 things too much pressure, bumping the shoulder too much in full length resizing, or a dirty chamber. cleaned the chamber while shooting Varget and it helped. I stopped shooting RL 15 after 3 rounds. Photos of the fired primers are attached. Any thoughts?

just my 2 cents! what was your c.o.a.l and the temp and attitude that you loaded shells? I have loaded shells that worked great at 800ft and 68 temp and then went to shoot @ 4400ft and 90 temp and at first shot I had to beat the bolt open( end of shoot). you must keep shells cool at high temp. I have always had trouble with federal brass being soft and not taking hot loads. back off your powder and I bet it will be better.

 

[fguffey]

I have always had trouble with federal brass being soft and not taking hot loads. back off your powder and I bet it will be better.

I would suggest the OP start by measuring before and again after. If he had a problem with soft brass the case head would increase in diameter when fired with normal loads.. If I was the problem and shooting heavy loads no matter how good the brass the best and most expensive brass can not make me look like I knew what I was doing.

Many years ago Bruce Hodgdon came to out house, seems a 270 Winchester locking up after shooting 10ft high into a river bank got his attention. To make sure it was not just one of those things my brother shot the rifle 2 more times to make sure. The bullet did not come down and opening the bolt did not get easier.

F. Guffey

 

[308Cajun]

just my 2 cents! what was your c.o.a.l and the temp and attitude that you loaded shells? I have loaded shells that worked great at 800ft and 68 temp and then went to shoot @ 4400ft and 90 temp and at first shot I had to beat the bolt open( end of shoot). you must keep shells cool at high temp. I have always had trouble with federal brass being soft and not taking hot loads. back off your powder and I bet it will be better.

Thanks.
The temp when reloaded was approximately 90 degrees, as well as when they were shot, although it was probably a bit higher under the metal roof at the range. altitude was sea level at both locations (South Louisiana). COAL was 2.800" for all rounds fired.