Need Advice - Rem Bolt Extraction

[K22]

As you may be aware, 223 Rem cases have fragile rims. My extractor on my Rem Model 7 chews them up so after about 4 reloads I have difficulty on some case extracting both live rounds and spent cases. It's a real pain in the *** especially since I can normally get 16 reloads out of a case with this caliber. Case head space has been checked and all is fine. Bullets seated .015" off lands.

Do any of you guys have a fix for this?

Would removing the ejector help extraction? (I don't mind if the case / round lays in the mag well, in fact it might even be preferred since I've loss numerous cases in the weeds ghog hunting when they do extract)

Would a Sako extractor provide better reliability?

Or should I just replace the existing Rem extractor with a new one. (The rifle is 30 years old and has had over 5000 rounds through it before I replace the barrel two years ago.

Thanks for the advice.

PS: I've develop a goofy solution in the field. I carry a 6" piece of old aluminum cleaning rod and when I encounter a stuck case / round I leave the bolt open and drop the rod down the bore and it knocks the live round / spent case out quickly. Kind of cumbersome for a follow up shot however.

 

[rayjay]

Sounds more like to me that you have an issue with chamber roughness or some other reason for sticking cases. Did you have this issue with the old bbl ? Maybe you need a small base sizing die.

 

[msinc]

If cases are sticking to the point that you have damage to the rim and need to carry around a piece of metal to drop down the bore to help get them out you have an issue that an ejector or extractor modification is not going to fix. Neither is the problem. As above, there is something wrong with the chamber. I would suggest that you find someone with a borescope who can have a look inside the chamber and see what is going on....did this start with the new barrel???? Did it ever work right????
When you say you "replaced the barrel two years ago" do you mean you got another Model 7 barrel used and installed it or did you get a new blank and have it threaded and chambered to your action???? If the later, I would suggest that you take to someone other than that guy. There is no excuse for anyone letting a barrel go out of their shop that is so poorly chambered the extractor jacks up the rim and the case has to be "drop barred" out of the chamber, period, end of story. Unless of course this thing sustained some kind of damage post barrel swap.
There is a chance you may be shooting reloads that are "almost" resized to the point that they will chamber but stick in the chamber like you are describing.....does this rifle have this problem with factory ammo??? If so then it has to be a chamber issue. That said, I have a buddy that hunts with me. He cannot resize his brass to save his own tail. Every time he comes to my place to shoot there is always an issue with his ammo being sized wrong. I think I finally convinced him on his last visit to go ahead and purchase a Stoney Point headspace tool. Usually though, once in the chamber and fired, the cases will go ahead and extract okay......even if they were not fully resized properly.

 

[K22]

Thanks for the replies. The headspacing of the cases have been checked. Don't beleive that's the issue. There were some extraction issues with the old factory barrel but not as severe. The new barrel is a Douglas supreme match barrel. The riflesmith is a 30 years veteran at installing barrels. The extraction difficulty does not occur until after the 3 to 4 reload and it doesn't happened every time.

Took rifle into the rifle smith this morning and he's going to inspect it and hopefully come up with a fix.

 

[divingin]

The extraction difficulty does not occur until after the 3 to 4 reload and it doesn't happened every time.

That sounds like a sizing (or lack thereof) issue to me.

 

[rayjay]

I would definitely try a small base die.

 

[timeout]

I've seen barrels chambered and the Smith left a "Burr" all the way around the outer edge of the chamber, something that anyone versed in machining would never overlook. Upon firing the rifle, the spent cartridge had to be driven out with a hammer and dowel rod. It doesn't take much to create an extraction problem.

Sorry, I missed that the problem was no occuring until the 3rd or 4th reload. Disregard my suggestion.

 

[hogpatrol]

Cheap route first, change the extractor ring. 30 years old with 5000 rounds I'd say it's probably time for a new one.

 

[Rsadams]

What Rayjay said on the small base dies and +1 with hogpatrol on the extractor... Sounds to me since it doesn't happen till 3rd or 4rth reload small base dies might help... Maybe the chamber is tighter than the old remington barrel...

 

[K22]

Update, riflesmith checked chamber, all good there. He's done rebarrel jobs for me in the past, all good.

Reloaded Cases chamber without any difficulty and there are no signs of burr marks from chamber on cases. New case extract without any difficulty although a fast / hard bolt movement is needed to eject from mag well.

Smith inspected extractor and suspects it's the culprit. He feels it has too much movement, floating to use his words. He's going to install a new Rem extractor. If that doesn't work he going to intall a Sako extractor. Like I said, I checked cases for headspace. There are full sized with an .002" shoulder set back. Case are not bulged. Chamber appears concentric.

Thanks again for all the input.

 

[dkhunt14]

Update, riflesmith checked chamber, all good there. He's done rebarrel jobs for me in the past, all good.

Reloaded Cases chamber without any difficulty and there are no signs of burr marks from chamber on cases. New case extract without any difficulty although a fast / hard bolt movement is needed to eject from mag well.

Smith inspected extractor and suspects it's the culprit. He feels it has too much movement, floating to use his words. He's going to install a new Rem extractor. If that doesn't work he going to intall a Sako extractor. Like I said, I checked cases for headspace. There are full sized with an .002" shoulder set back. Case are not bulged. Chamber appears concentric.

Thanks again for all the input.

Headspace isn't the problem. When you don't size the back of the case enough they get tight after a few firings. Your die is not sizing the back end of the case enough. Either you need a ring die, small base die or a custom die. Matt

 

[rayjay]

Headspace isn't the problem. When you don't size the back of the case enough they get tight after a few firings. Your die is not sizing the back end of the case enough. Either you need a ring die, small base die or a custom die. Matt

He can do this after spending the money on bling.

 

[msinc]

He can do this after spending the money on bling.

Yes sir, and "bling" is exactly what he will get out of changing the extractor...just about a zero, no...less than zero chance that the extractor sitting in the groove of a case can possibly cause a case to stick in the chamber to the point it needs to be hammered out with a tool dropped down the barrel. Actually, there's a better name for it besides bling. Someone needs to please explain to the rest of us just how this comes to be. All the extractor does is hang on to the case so it "comes along for the ride" with the bolt...it does absolutely nothing to help cam or free the case from the chamber. The ramp on the bolt handle does the pulling when the bolt is opened.
There is plenty that can cause this, rough or chattered chamber, galled ring in the chamber as described above by timeout {this is probably one of the most common ones} it is hard to see without a good borescope, but it usually leaves a bright line around the side of the case, which is where the brass has flowed into the galled spot in the chamber. Some sort of misalignment between the receiver and the chamber, also, I have seen the front action screw either too deep in the stock or sized too long interfere with the bolt. There should be a mark on the bolt lug, but you have to know to look for one. Not that your gunsmith doesn't, just that this is not a very common problem that can very easily be overlooked.
I have seen a galled spot cause the rifle to act like this one and not manifest until the third or fourth round. Seems like it sometimes needs to get hot. If it is the chamber ringed by the reamer small base dies will not help...the case will just expand until it flows into the gunched out portion and still do what it is doing now.
I had this trouble on several barrels and Dave Manson clued me into using better cutting fluid.
Sounds like you took it to the same "gunsmith" that barreled the action in the first place.....you can best believe something is not right and it's not anything a Sako, or any other extractor is going to cure.

 

[msinc]

To answer a very good question about whether or not a Sako type extractor is any more reliable....yes and no, it depends on what you call or are seeking as to "reliable". The Army and Marines do not install any other extractor and they are the guys whose very lives may depend on it, so that speaks volumes as to the effectiveness and reliability of the Remington extractor. They are also the guys that never shoot anything but factory brand new ammo.
As far as maintaining a grip on the case while it is being "cammed" back out of the chamber the Remington is extremely reliable. The addition of a Sako or M-16 extractor, first and foremost, "sells" rifles or at least it helps when you are trying to peddle a "tactical" overpriced version of the 700. It's seen as a "step" towards a claw type...so it has to be good. What it really does is eliminate the one bad thing about the Remington design...if you have a Remington extractor and you really seize a case in the chamber you will break the extractor if you force it. Whereas, the Sako/M-16 can simply jump the rim. You still have a stuck case...but at least the rifle will be operational again if you do get it out and not damage anything else.

 

[Paul Seaman]

I am relatively new to this but the sizing dies raise a question to me. If the problem has gotten worse after the barrel was changed, maybe the die was worn and the barrel is at prestine cut so not they do not match as they used to. A new set of dies may cure the issue???? I may be off base but I am new enough to look from less than just the gun values. I don't know what I don't know,,,, still!

 

[wapiti25]

I have had to change several extractors on new rifles. It is Remingtons poor quality control. The design is marginal and poor quality does not fix it.

 

[dkhunt14]

I am relatively new to this but the sizing dies raise a question to me. If the problem has gotten worse after the barrel was changed, maybe the die was worn and the barrel is at prestine cut so not they do not match as they used to. A new set of dies may cure the issue???? I may be off base but I am new enough to look from less than just the gun values. I don't know what I don't know,,,, still!

You may be close to the problem. I believe the Reamer used is tighter in the back end and therefore the die is not sizing the case. If cases are sticking to the point of messing up the rims, then another extractor probably isn't going to help. Either he will need a ring die, or a custom die or polish the chamber out to make it bigger. There is a cheap way to make a ring die. You can take a cheap die and cut the shoulder off. Then take a few thousands off the bottom so the case will go up in the die without bumping it too much. Then you will size with your reguler die to bump the shoulder and size the neck. Possibly a small base die if Redding makes then in this cartridge. Matt

 

[wholman]

I think a small base die will fix your problem.

 

[timeout]

You may be close to the problem. I believe the Reamer used is tighter in the back end and therefore the die is not sizing the case. If cases are sticking to the point of messing up the rims, then another extractor probably isn't going to help. Either he will need a ring die, or a custom die or polish the chamber out to make it bigger. There is a cheap way to make a ring die. You can take a cheap die and cut the shoulder off. Then take a few thousands off the bottom so the case will go up in the die without bumping it too much. Then you will size with your reguler die to bump the shoulder and size the neck. Possibly a small base die if Redding makes then in this cartridge. Matt

Yes, make precise OD measurements on a fired case and compare them to a resized case. That will confirm or eliminate a sizing issue.

 

[msinc]

I have had to change several extractors on new rifles. It is Remingtons poor quality control. The design is marginal and poor quality does not fix it.

If it's such a pi$$ poor design please tell us why you believe the Army AND the Marines are still using such garbage?????? Changing the extractor because a case is sticking is like changing a tire because your car wont start.....good god ya'll!!!!!!!!