i am building a rifle to shoot F-class. I just want to be competitive. In an effort to get more accurate with my powder charges I'm thinking about switching things up a bit. i currently have a RCBS 10-10 and a RCBS 1500 charge master setup. i'm thinking about changing to a scott parker tuned lyman M5 beam scale with an omega auto powder trickler and possibly getting a gem pro 250 down the road. i can't spend the $$$$ that some spend, so i'm looking for the best bang for my buck. i've heard nothing but good things about scott's work tuning scales and i really like what i've seen in videos of the omega auto trickler. anybody have any experience with these items or have any suggestions?
need advice on where to go with my powder measuring
- Thread starter n10sivern
- Start date
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Scott Parkers tuned scales are awesome and so it the Omega trickler, the Omega will make you a little tweaked until you get it all figured out but once you do there well worth the money, I don't know what range your shooting or what kind of groups you need to hold at the ranges your shooting to keep competitive,...maybe you could give us a little more info. but for the very little f-class I have shot what your looking at getting would work awesome.n10sivern said:
Wayne.
The Omega is a really nice addition to the reloading arsenal. Well made, works well, and backed up with a strong warranty. My 10-10 is really nice but I'm sending it off to Scott for a tuning just for the heck of it.
The Chargemaster 1500 throws some pretty consistent loads. Getting better than .1gr is going to cost some $$$. Your shooting has to be pretty good to be able to see any difference on target but it's all about consistency and eliminating variables. Better powder drops is a good start.
The Chargemaster 1500 throws some pretty consistent loads. Getting better than .1gr is going to cost some $$$. Your shooting has to be pretty good to be able to see any difference on target but it's all about consistency and eliminating variables. Better powder drops is a good start.
looking at 600-1000 yard F-class shooting. here is what i figure and somebody correct me if i'm wrong. the gempro 250 weighs to within 0.02gr. each kernel of powder weighs about 0.02gr. the scott tuned scales will recognize and move with each individual kernel of corn. so if i can see movement on the beam scale that equals 0.02gr then it would be essentially just as accurate as the gem pro 250. it is all more accurate than my 10-10 that i have now and is more accurate than my chargemaster 1500. the omega trickler can be set to throw 1 kernel at a time. the auto tricolor is cool as it will shut off as soon as the beam reaches zero. theoretically, if i combine the omega auto trickler and the parker tuned scale, i should be able to get accurate powder throws to 0.02gr. it will be a tad slower than the rcbs 1500, but who cares.....i'm loading for accuracy at a long distance. every little bit counts towards accuracy. if i have my rifle and scope set up right, the most accurate ammo i can load, then that leaves all the error to me and not a combination of my errors, inaccurate powder throws, and poorly built rifle.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
I really have my doubts the auto Omega would throw to .02 I know the manual one will. I don't know any winners using a balance anymore other then myself and I don't win all that often, I think the winners are using vic123's and gd 503's I did talk to jaychris about the gem pro and he felt you could load accurately with one, he just wanted to upgrade to the GD 503, I also think your degree of accuracy does not need to be where say mine does because I am shooting for smallest group and score and your just shooting for score, there for I believe the beam scales that you already have would work just fine for your needs with a tune up and purchase the Omega but not the auto one, I think with the auto one you would be at the level of throwing equal to your 1500 that you already own. I hope this helps some and I wish you the best luck with what ever you do. One last thought, if you have the extra money the best you can buy will ease your mind but if money is a issue the balance or the 250 will make better ammo then my wind reading skills will allow me to shoot in your game, in my game,..1000 br wind reading is a big plus but getting ten down the tube in 20 seconds or less while the condition holds would be way better IMHO, you have to shoot much slower, at best your at the mercy of the guy in the pit running your targetn10sivern said:
Wayne.
i only wanted the omega auto feature to load faster for plinking ammo for some of my rifles....basically, what i use the chargemaster for. i would sell the chargemaster so the omega auto would replace it for loading for my wife's 243, my daughters 7m-08, and some of my WWII military rifles.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
This is a confusing thread.
When I first opened it I was going to recommend the Chargemaster 1500 as the device to get, but then I got to the line where the OP (who wants to get into F-Class) says he has one and then states he uses it for plinking loads in a subsequent post.
Gosh, I wish someone would have told me that the Chargemaster 1500 is not to be used for F-class, I would not have wasted 5 years using mine to load multiple thousands of match ammo that has done well for me during that time. My challenges are not my ammo.
In fact the Chargemaster is the device that has enabled me to shoot F-class on a monthly basis and I can rely on it to produce great ammo, quickly. I load 100 rounds in about 55 minutes using the auto feature and for a family guy like me who has to travel quite a bit, that is a Godsend. I have several hundred cases from the same lot that I just cycle through and keep ready to load and in the days before a match, sometimes even the night before, I use the CM1500 to load up a batch.
I use Varget, which has the metering properties of a brick, and it runs through the CM1500 quite nicely. There are 4 to 5 kernels of Varget powder in 0.1 grain. I run my CM to get me the exact charge I want and the few times it runs over the weight, I just pluck out a few kernels until I get to my target weight. If you believe that a few kernels more or less are going to make any difference in the results, I predict you will have fits of introspection in your F-class endeavors.
When I first opened it I was going to recommend the Chargemaster 1500 as the device to get, but then I got to the line where the OP (who wants to get into F-Class) says he has one and then states he uses it for plinking loads in a subsequent post.
Gosh, I wish someone would have told me that the Chargemaster 1500 is not to be used for F-class, I would not have wasted 5 years using mine to load multiple thousands of match ammo that has done well for me during that time. My challenges are not my ammo.
In fact the Chargemaster is the device that has enabled me to shoot F-class on a monthly basis and I can rely on it to produce great ammo, quickly. I load 100 rounds in about 55 minutes using the auto feature and for a family guy like me who has to travel quite a bit, that is a Godsend. I have several hundred cases from the same lot that I just cycle through and keep ready to load and in the days before a match, sometimes even the night before, I use the CM1500 to load up a batch.
I use Varget, which has the metering properties of a brick, and it runs through the CM1500 quite nicely. There are 4 to 5 kernels of Varget powder in 0.1 grain. I run my CM to get me the exact charge I want and the few times it runs over the weight, I just pluck out a few kernels until I get to my target weight. If you believe that a few kernels more or less are going to make any difference in the results, I predict you will have fits of introspection in your F-class endeavors.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Well there you go,...first hand info from a f-class shooter using what you already have. I have a 1500 and like it a lot for my hunting and plinking loads, however in long range BR it isn't precise enough, I dropped my vertical in half by hand weighing on a tuned balance. I have only shot one f-class match in my life but it only took me the one match to figure out I needed to improve on my wind reading skills much more then my loading skills, I hope to shoot some more f-class this year if possible.
Wayne.
Wayne.
i bought my 1500 initially for powder throws for pistol because i had a single stage press. i now have a progressive that i load pistol, 223, and 458 socom on, so i don't really use the 1500 for what i bought it for. the 1500 is +/- 0.1 gr. when i want to load super accurate ammo i find myself taking the 1500's charge and double checking it on the 10-10. quite frequently, my 1500 shows the right charge but is 0.1gr over on my 10-10. on hunting/plinking ammo i don't care about this. if i want to shoot consistently at long ranges, i don't find that acceptable. can the 1500 be used on f-class, sure. are their better solutions, yes. i guess it boils down to i don't have the faith in my 1500 to do what i want so i am looking for an alternative solution.
and yes, i will probably have fits in f-class. i'm a bit of a perfectionist on things and tend to go overboard. that's just my nature.
and yes, i will probably have fits in f-class. i'm a bit of a perfectionist on things and tend to go overboard. that's just my nature.
dansig
the RCBS 10-10 is accurate enough for any range, it jumps from a single kernel of powder, it's just a question how good the eyesight is...
I use my iPhone to magnify the needle so I can see the changes one kernel makes
I use my iPhone to magnify the needle so I can see the changes one kernel makes
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
A 0.1 grain difference on a pistol load of 5.0 grains is barely significant at 2% of the load.
A 0.1 grain difference on a rifle load of 50.0 grains is insignificant at .2% of the load.
The CM1500 is digital so it will jump .1 grain every X number of kernels whereas your analog 10-10 may move for every grain and you have to interpret the reading at that point.
With Varget, it seems to take 4-5 kernels to make the CM go up .1 grain, so that the difference between 44.0 and 44.1 may be as much as 5 kernels and as little as 1 kernel, so the .1 difference is really less than .1 grain in probably 80% of the time.
There are other things that you can do that will have greater impact on the performance of your ammo, such as bullet pointing, meplat trimming, sorting the bullets, annealing your brass, and of course, sorting youe cases by weight.
Also, you had better find a scope that has a reticle that subtends no more than .001 MOA.
A 0.1 grain difference on a rifle load of 50.0 grains is insignificant at .2% of the load.
The CM1500 is digital so it will jump .1 grain every X number of kernels whereas your analog 10-10 may move for every grain and you have to interpret the reading at that point.
With Varget, it seems to take 4-5 kernels to make the CM go up .1 grain, so that the difference between 44.0 and 44.1 may be as much as 5 kernels and as little as 1 kernel, so the .1 difference is really less than .1 grain in probably 80% of the time.
There are other things that you can do that will have greater impact on the performance of your ammo, such as bullet pointing, meplat trimming, sorting the bullets, annealing your brass, and of course, sorting youe cases by weight.
Also, you had better find a scope that has a reticle that subtends no more than .001 MOA.
dansig said:the RCBS 10-10 is accurate enough for any range, it jumps from a single kernel of powder, it's just a question how good the eyesight is...
I use my iPhone to magnify the needle so I can see the changes one kernel makes
Great idea!! As you are now the smartest guy I have ever met can you fill us in on your other tips and tricks for reloading? ;D
dansig
Quinc said:
what I did was buy quality equipment and start from scratch...
when I buy new brass I fire it once then I start to work on it..
clean in a tumbler for 24 hours
rinse in water to get tumbler dust off
dry
fullsize and decap (yes I tumble with spent primer)
trim to length if needed
expand neck
neckturn
chamfer inside and outside neck
uniform primer pocket
uniform flash hole
clean in ultrasonic
rinse
dry
necksize in Wilson neck sizer with correct bushing
sort by weight.
that's new brass.. after this is done I skip the flash hole uniforming, trimming, expanding and neckturning.. everything else stays the same...
when reloading I weigh every charge down to a single kernel, weigh the bullets and sort, I use K&M Arbor press with force measurement indicator and sort loaded rounds buy bullet seating tension..
lot of work but worth it when I get to the range... then I only have to worry about my own faults and the weather...
When shooting long range I like to know my powder weight is as near as I can practically get it. I know many will say the odd few kernels one way or the other won’t make any difference but, I say, why not take the trouble to get it right when it’s so easy to do. Do you trim your cases “near enough†give or take a few thou? Or seat your bullets a few thou here or there? It all doesn’t make MUCH difference but if your target is the size of a grapefruit at over half a mile, why not strive to get it right?
I use a beam scale because it’s accurate, reliable, repeatable and sensitive. A Chargemaster type machine is usually reckoned to be +/- .1 grain. Now .1 grain is around 5 kernels of Varget, so you could quite easily have a spread of up to 10 kernels and the digital readout will still tell you that you are spot on.
My beam scales will easily show a single kernel of Varget and 3-4 kernels are immediately obvious.
Have a look at these Daily Bulletin articles to see my beam scale in action.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/forum-member-rigs-video-display-for-balance-beam-scale/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/monitor-balance-beam-with-magnified-image-on-smartphone/
I use a beam scale because it’s accurate, reliable, repeatable and sensitive. A Chargemaster type machine is usually reckoned to be +/- .1 grain. Now .1 grain is around 5 kernels of Varget, so you could quite easily have a spread of up to 10 kernels and the digital readout will still tell you that you are spot on.
My beam scales will easily show a single kernel of Varget and 3-4 kernels are immediately obvious.
Have a look at these Daily Bulletin articles to see my beam scale in action.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/forum-member-rigs-video-display-for-balance-beam-scale/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/monitor-balance-beam-with-magnified-image-on-smartphone/
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I'm not sure some people appreciate the difference between digital and analog.
At 4.5 kernels of Varget per 0.1 grain, a load of 45 grains will have 2,025 kernels, so what's a few kernels in the grand scheme of things? In order for you analog balance beam scale to be able to detect a single kernel, you MUST position your eye at the same place relative to the beam for every reading. Therefore I suspect that all of you have a chin rest near your scale where you place that 10+ pound bodily attachment you call a head for every reading or else your readings are non-repeatable and tehrefore incorrect.
If you use the iPhone doodad as depicted above, (and ingenious workaround, BTW,) if you move the phone in any way, you must recalibrate. And what happens if you get a call or text while loading?
At any rate, if the OP will feel better spending money to address a non-existent problem, who am I to stand in his way? After all, it's good for the economy.
At 4.5 kernels of Varget per 0.1 grain, a load of 45 grains will have 2,025 kernels, so what's a few kernels in the grand scheme of things? In order for you analog balance beam scale to be able to detect a single kernel, you MUST position your eye at the same place relative to the beam for every reading. Therefore I suspect that all of you have a chin rest near your scale where you place that 10+ pound bodily attachment you call a head for every reading or else your readings are non-repeatable and tehrefore incorrect.
If you use the iPhone doodad as depicted above, (and ingenious workaround, BTW,) if you move the phone in any way, you must recalibrate. And what happens if you get a call or text while loading?
At any rate, if the OP will feel better spending money to address a non-existent problem, who am I to stand in his way? After all, it's good for the economy.
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