Need advice on .223 for FTR

[kybountyhunter]

Looking for some advice on what is the optimal barrel twist and reamer for a .223 shooting the Berger 90 vlds... For F-Class midrange matches.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[ShootDots]

Looking for some advice on what is the optimal barrel twist and reamer for a .223 shooting the Berger 90 vlds... For F-Class midrange matches.

Thanks,
Mike

Get with Drew, he is "Skiutah" on this forum. He has a fantastic winning combination with his .223 F-T/R and the 90's! He will be glad to help you..

 

[jsthntn247]

Check the .22 forum on here. Lots of threads about the topic this year.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Looking for some advice on what is the optimal barrel twist and reamer for a .223 shooting the Berger 90 vlds... For F-Class midrange matches.

Thanks,
Mike

Hey Mike, how are you?

I shot F-TR for several years with an enhanced AR-15. Before I switched over to the .308, my AR was wearing a 26 inch Krieger in 1:7.7 with their 5.56 NATO match chamber (tight chamber with long throat,) a Weaver T-36, using 80gr JLK that I was sending at about 2850fps. I did make high master at MR with the rig, but I could never get past SS at 1000 yards. That was the main reason I moved to the .308.

I started with the AR shooting 75gr A-Max but I had problems keeping them supersonic at 1000 yards when it got cool in south Texas.

I was shooting the 77smk at 300 and 600, but when I got my Krieger, I switched to the 80SMK and finally settled on the 80JLK.

If you're going to shoot the 90gr, you're probably looking for a 1:6.5 or 1:7.

The good thing about shooting the .223 at 1000 yards is you get to learn to read the wind.

Congrats on your performance at Lodi.

 

[skiutah02]

Get with Drew, he is "Skiutah" on this forum. He has a fantastic winning combination with his .223 F-T/R and the 90's! He will be glad to help you..

Appreciate the vote of confidence, Ben. Greg Taylor gstaylorg is also a fount of info. As suggested above, I'd start by searching my AS username and Greg's for a good background then I'd be happy to field specific questions. Drew

 

[Rope2horns]

Quoted this from Greg Taylor.....



Needless to say, I'm pretty pleased with the .223/90 VLD combo.

As far as being difficult to load, search through this forum using the query "90 VLDs". You will find more good info than you can shake a stick at regarding how to get them to shoot.

The short version is, you want the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG that has 0.169" freebore. Your COAL will [roughly] be in the 2.630" to 2.650" range. Using a 30" 7-twist barrel ( a 6.5-twist might be even a tick better, but not absolutely necessary), shoot for approximately 2815-2825 fps with Varget and Lapua brass, 2840-2850 fps with H4895 and Lapua brass. Brass life with Varget is pretty reasonable. Brass life with H4895 will be 3-4 firings. The real key is seating depth. Most find about .010" into the lands is optimal. A few have found about .005" off the lands (fairly close to touching) works best, and the fewest of the few (including myself) are jumping them about .015" to .020". So there you have the chamber, target velocity ranges with two commonly-used powders, and the most likely seating depth regions to test. Short of having someone else load and test them, it doesn't get much easier than that.

Final note - with the 0.169 freebore chamber, you can still shoot 80 gr bullets such as the 80.5 Fullbore very well, although they will be seated fairly far out in the neck. The opposite is not true; i.e. if you try to load the 90s in a chamber optimized for the 80 gr bullets with something like .100" to .130" freebore, you will be giving up way too much velocity (and effectively, the major advantage of using the 90s). There is nothing wrong with using the 80 gr bullets in F-TR. However, even though you can push them faster than the 90s, the BC deficit simply cannot be made up by increased velocity. At 600 yds, the 90 VLDs at 2850 fps will keep up with (or shoot inside) most any typical 185 Juggernaut loads in the .308. They will be at a disadvantage against the 200+ gr offerings in 30 cal, but that shouldn't be a big surprise. The almost complete lack of recoil makes the precision possible with a .223/90 VLD combo insanely good. When the wind comes up, you have to be much, much better at wind calls when using 80 gr bullets in the .223.

 

[skiutah02]

^yep

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for saving me re-typing that, Norm! Mike - There are a number of folks here with a lot of expertise shooting a .223 w 90 VLDs in F-TR competition here. Members Laurie (Laurie Holland), skiutah02 (Drew), XTR (Wade), jsthntn247 (Brad), and myself, just to name a few of the many. Most are regular posters on the topic in the "Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s" section. Any would be happy to help you if you have further questions.

I currently have a build underway that should be almost finished, which will have a 6.8-twist 30" barrel. The first rifle I had built to shoot the 90s has a 30" barrel in 7.0-twist, cut with the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG (reamer print below). Barrels on both of these rifles are Bartlein 5R, M24 contour, .218"/.224". You can really go anywhere between 7.0- and 6.5-twist and it will work just fine. The same is true with contour; it just has to make weight. I would have liked to try an MTU contour barrel, but simply couldn't make weight with one in my current setups. The above post Norm cut/pasted is really just a shorthand version, so if you have further questions, contact any/all of the above for more detailed answers. A .223 shooting 90s can be a very deadly combination, especially for MR, having almost no recoil and extremely good precision. You won't be sorry if you set one up for F-TR!

 

[XTR]

What he said. ^^

I think for mid range a 1:7 is all you need for the 90s. Mine is a 1:7. I think Greg has shot his to long range with the same twist.

Step one, get the reamer above.

Mike, call me when you get ready to chamber and you can borrow mine if you don't want to buy one. It's only cut one chamber so far.

 

[kybountyhunter]

Gentlemen.. Thanks for the great advice!

Mike

 

[USMCDOC]

Thanks for saving me re-typing that, Norm! Mike - There are a number of folks here with a lot of expertise shooting a .223 w 90 VLDs in F-TR competition here. Members Laurie (Laurie Holland), skiutah02 (Drew), XTR (Wade), jsthntn247 (Brad), and myself, just to name a few of the many. Most are regular posters on the topic in the "Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s" section. Any would be happy to help you if you have further questions.

I currently have a build underway that should be almost finished, which will have a 6.8-twist 30" barrel. The first rifle I had built to shoot the 90s has a 30" barrel in 7.0-twist, cut with the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG (reamer print below). Barrels on both of these rifles are Bartlein 5R, M24 contour, .218"/.224". You can really go anywhere between 7.0- and 6.5-twist and it will work just fine. The same is true with contour; it just has to make weight. I would have liked to try an MTU contour barrel, but simply couldn't make weight with one in my current setups. The above post Norm cut/pasted is really just a shorthand version, so if you have further questions, contact any/all of the above for more detailed answers. A .223 shooting 90s can be a very deadly combination, especially for MR, having almost no recoil and extremely good precision. You won't be sorry if you set one up for F-TR!

I used to do it with a Wylde reamer and then throat it for the 90 VLDs. What i found was that the 75gr Amax shot very well with the same chamber i was using for the 90's. The OAL was 2.5035 with the lil Amax bullets with 24.0 grs of H4895. After looking at the differences between what i had with the Wylde reamer/throating the bbl, verses this ISSF reamer, i have chosen to order a reamer, should be ready in about 8 weeks. I could not see that much difference between the two. Plus now, I will have more consistency from chamber to new chamber, which is a plus! i am really glad to have found out about this print.

 

[mao0720]

I hesitate in writing this, but don't overlook the 90gr SMK. They are much cheaper than the Berger offering, can be found more consistently, come pointed from the factory, still have a very good BC, and are insanely accurate. When I developed my load for 90gr SMKs for my 223 FTR rifle earlier this year, my average group size for 20+ Groups was in the .3's with plenty of groups in the .2, .1 and even a few .0x range. A 223 FTR rifle might be the best training tool ever. The only downside I can think of is that a 308 feels like shooting a shoulder mounted cannon after shooting the 223.

 

[USMCDOC]

I hesitate in writing this, but don't overlook the 90gr SMK. They are much cheaper than the Berger offering, can be found more consistently, come pointed from the factory, still have a very good BC, and are insanely accurate. When I developed my load for 90gr SMKs for my 223 FTR rifle earlier this year, my average group size for 20+ Groups was in the .3's with plenty of groups in the .2, .1 and even a few .0x range. A 223 FTR rifle might be the best training tool ever. The only downside I can think of is that a 308 feels like shooting a shoulder mounted cannon after shooting the 223.

You might consider it, but be aware that there is about one MOA difference between them at 1K.

 

[XTR]

Greg will surely disagree, but I'll write it anyway...

Nobody in their right mind shoots a 223 in F-TR at 1000 yards. I'm beginning to think about a new barrel for mine, and I've never shot it past 600, nor do I intend to.

If the 308s had stayed at 185s then on paper the 223 certainly had a shot, though getting an ES a comparable to what can be achieved with the 308 seems to be very hard. The difference between the 90s and the 200s is pretty large, and the people who shoot the 90s seem to think that the actual windage may be greater than that shown in the ballistic calculators.

 

[USMCDOC]

Greg will surely disagree, but I'll write it anyway...

Nobody in their right mind shoots a 223 in F-TR at 1000 yards. I'm beginning to think about a new barrel for mine, and I've never shot it past 600, nor do I intend to.

If the 308s had stayed at 185s then on paper the 223 certainly had a shot, though getting an ES a comparable to what can be achieved with the 308 seems to be very hard. The difference between the 90s and the 200s is pretty large, and the people who shoot the 90s seem to think that the actual windage may be greater than that shown in the ballistic calculators.

Then i will have to say that i am not in my right mind.. but the left side is working well! And i don't really care..for me now.. it is just fun, i am not taking any of it serious any more.. so..

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Greg will surely disagree, but I'll write it anyway...

Nobody in their right mind shoots a 223 in F-TR at 1000 yards. I'm beginning to think about a new barrel for mine, and I've never shot it past 600, nor do I intend to.

If the 308s had stayed at 185s then on paper the 223 certainly had a shot, though getting an ES a comparable to what can be achieved with the 308 seems to be very hard. The difference between the 90s and the 200s is pretty large, and the people who shoot the 90s seem to think that the actual windage may be greater than that shown in the ballistic calculators.

Oh, I don't know. It might be fun for you to try. I had a ball doing that early on. But with the advent of the longer/heavier 30 caliber bullets, the .224 bullets were simply not competitive anymore. Also, the .223 Remington case just doesn't have enough powder space to take full advantage of longer barrels, like anything much over 26 inches.

 

[Laurie]

Greg will surely disagree, but I'll write it anyway...

Nobody in their right mind shoots a 223 in F-TR at 1000 yards. I'm beginning to think about a new barrel for mine, and I've never shot it past 600, nor do I intend to.

If the 308s had stayed at 185s then on paper the 223 certainly had a shot, though getting an ES a comparable to what can be achieved with the 308 seems to be very hard. The difference between the 90s and the 200s is pretty large, and the people who shoot the 90s seem to think that the actual windage may be greater than that shown in the ballistic calculators.

My immediate reaction was to disagree, but I suspect you're correct. As recently as 2011/12, I could do well in the GB F-Class league with 223/90, but since then 308 has steadily progressed. Mostly thanks to Berger. With a choice between 223 and the 90gn Berger VLD at around 2,900 fps and 308 with the Juggernaut at 2,825 fps, I'd prefer the 'mouse cartridge' in good conditions, but concede I'd drop fewer points with the 308 in difficult ones five years ago. However, the 185 at 2,800 or so has been overtaken by recent developments. The scores people are putting up in FTR these days with 308s would have won many 800-1,000 yard 'Open' class matches not too long ago. When 210s were the 'heavies', the issue was always increased elevations over 155-185s at 1,000, and balancing this against points lost on windage depending on how tricky the wind was likely to be. Nowadays, windage benefits have improved even more and it seems possible to shoot the heavier bullets and retain acceptable elevation consistency. I've never taken to 'heavies' in FTR though and even restrict my use of the Juggernaut, preferring 155-175s. I still like shooting the 223 though, and I'm having my original 223 FTR rifle which always struggled with keeping under 8.25Kg all-up weight rebarreled with a full-profile F-Class barrel and tuner and will have some fun in 'Open' in 300 and 500 yard matches. Just waiting on the Benchmark barrel arriving in the UK!

What was that phrase ? Nobody in their right mind .....

 

[XTR]

I knew that was going to get "lit up" Steve Siracusa came to Oak Ridge a couple of yrs ago and whooped up on us with a mouse gun at 1000 yards.

Laurie, it's getting more and more common these days that the top F-TR scores are better than all but the best F-Open scores. I believe I heard Mr. Biggs joke once that his next open build was going to be a 308.

 

[Laurie]

Laurie, it's getting more and more common these days that the top F-TR scores are better than all but the best F-Open scores. I believe I heard Mr. Biggs joke once that his next open build was going to be a 308.

That's not too unusual in my club matches, but I've yet to see an FTR 4 or 5-match aggregate beat 'Open' in any of the GB F-Class Assoc league rounds. I have very occasionally seen a winning FTR stage score better that of the 'Open' winner, but even that is usually down to different conditions between relays. The quick way of knowing what the weather was like on a league round that you've not attended is to look at the classes' aggs. If the Open winner is 20 or 30 points above his FTR opposite, you know it was bad! If single figures, the weekend had relatively easy winds. To give an example, the last round of this year shot at Bisley over the weekend of 5th / 6th November saw the final medal winners in each class as:

Grand Aggregate Scores

Overall F/TR Match Results

1 Stuart Anselm 381.18
2 Ian Chenery 377.24
3 Jon Longhurst 376.14

Overall F/O Match Results

1 David Lloyd 409.33
2 Joe West 407.30
3 David Kent 406.32

This was in a cold fishtailing northerly (headwind direction) that could switch four or five MOA at 1,000 in the blink of an eye. Incidentally, Stuart who was our FTR team captain at Raton in 2013 has had a good season and took our league FTR championship this year - and with a factory rifle too. That's the very high-precision Italian Victrix, everything bar the (Benchmark) barrel CNC machined in a super-modern workshop. The barrel chambering and threading is even CNC cut. I think he was loading the 200gn Hybrid.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Actually, Wade, I don't disagree, but in fairness the comparison of the .223 w 90s and the .308 requires some qualification. Two simple factors go into the question of shooting 90 VLDs at 1000 yd: BC and ES/SD. The BC of the 90 VLD combined with the velocities possible from a 30+" barrel mean it can hold its own with pretty much any standard 185 gr 30 cal match bullet with a velocity of ~50-100 fps less. In contrast, the 90 VLD will be at a significant disadvantage against bullets in the 200+ gr weight range. It's really that simple and even a casual glance at the BCs will tell you that.

The other issue that goes into shooting the .223 with 90s at 1000 yd is that most people are not getting ES/SD values nearly as low as what they can obtain with a good .308 load. In my hands, 15-20 fps is about as low as I typically get with the .223, whereas ES/SDs of 10 fps or less are readily obtainable with my .308 loads. This is largely due to the much smaller case volume of the .223, and the fact that the .223 Rem case uses the larger diameter flash hole found in .308 Standard brass (as opposed to the smaller flash hole found in .308 Lapua Palma brass). Higher ES/SD will likely translate into greater vertical dispersion at 1000 yd for the .223. I find the lack of any appreciable recoil in the .223 provides a slight gain in precision relative to my .308s with 185s-200s. Whether that is enough to fully offset the disadvantage of higher ES/SD is questionable. Without a doubt, the .223 loaded with 90 VLDs is very easy to shoot with great precision. What I can say is that I've shot better scores on average at 1000 yd with the .223/90s than with a .308 and 185 Juggernauts; however, the sample size isn't huge. On the whole, I have never felt as though the 90s behaved any differently at 1000 yd than their BC would suggest. In my hands, windages for my 90 VLD and 185 Juggernauts loads are exactly what I would expect based on BC; that is, the .223/90s has a slight edge, even at 1000 yd. However, I should point out that the velocity of my 185 Juggernaut load is fairly slow relative to the ~2800 fps velocities some are getting due to a relatively short freebore.

Until recently, I was not loading anything heavier in my .308s than 185s. As a result, I do not feel I have been giving up anything by shooting the .223/90s at 1000 yd as compared to my .308/185 load. However, it most definitely has been a disadvantage against other competitors shooting 200s. It definitely requires paying very close attention to the wind indicators and picking your conditions with extreme care. Having said that, I still won't hesitate to shoot it at 1000 yd as long as I know the wind conditions aren't going to be totally insane. If they are, I'll use my new 200.20X .308 load, which has tuned in very nicely. The good news is that I just got the call today and my new .223 rifle build for shooting 90s is finally finished. I incorporated a few new changes in this rifle based on what I have learned the last couple years with the first one. Without a doubt, it will be used in 1000 yd F-TR matches. Whether or not I win with it is irrelevant. If not, I can always say, "Well, I'm just shooting a .223. What did you expect?" .