Need a bit of help from Lapua brass experts....

[2dogs]

Im having a bit of an issue with some new Lapua 223 brass. The neck tension on the new cases is pretty stiff. I am running it thru my full length sizer over the expander ball after lubing the inside of the neck with a bit of Imperial size die wax. But when I try to seat a bullet, the shoulder is collapsing a bit. I am using a Wilson in line die to seat and the neck tension STILL feels tight. When I tried to fire them in my rifle, they didnt go off, and the firing pin drove the case into the chamber PAST my extractor. When I got the case back out of the gun and examined it I could clearly see the shoulder had been pushed back. Any ideas??

Rifle is a Remington 700, Hart 1:14 barrel, 223AI. I have fireformed a whole pile of handloaded cases successfully with this rifle with excellent accuracy/results using WW brass. I dissassembled my bolt, to include the ejector, and upon checking a sized but without a bullet Lapua case the bolt closes like it should. However, checking a case AFTER I seated a bullet in these cases, the empty bolts has quite a bit of play. I didnt bother to put an indicator on it to measure it because it was obvious why the loaded rounds didnt fire.

So, Im not sure if I have a bad lot of brass here or if I need to run them over my K&M expander mandrel or if you guys might have any other suggestions. Thanks for all your time and help.

 

[Terry]

You can reduce neck tension with the expander and by anealing.

 

[Terry]

Rifle is a Remington 700, Hart 1:14 barrel, 223AI. I have fireformed a whole pile of handloaded cases successfully with this rifle with excellent accuracy/results using WW brass. I dissassembled my bolt, to include the ejector, and upon checking a sized but without a bullet Lapua case the bolt closes like it should. However, checking a case AFTER I seated a bullet in these cases, the empty bolts has quite a bit of play. I didnt bother to put an indicator on it to measure it because it was obvious why the loaded rounds didnt fire.

This indicates the headspace is incorrect. If you are fire forming like this you may want to jamm the bullets.

 

[2dogs]

Terry, that the headspace was incorrect was what I was trying to point out. This AFTER I seated a bullet in the new brass. With the same brass, no bullet seated, the bolt closes with a bit of crush. I have and load for several AI rifles and 3 of them are 223 AIs.

I understand I could get these to fireform by "jamming" the bullets, but since I am hunting small critters with my fireform loads I dont want to open the bolt on a jammed chambered round and get powder all over the works.

Should new brass need to be annealed?

 

[lrgoodger]

If you are pushing the shoulder back when seating a bullet, then obviously the expander button is not expanding the neck sufficiently. Mic the expander button. It should be no more than three or four thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter. A lee collet die mandrel is normally only one thousandth smaller than the bullet diameter. I presume you are using flat base bullets. Boat tails will go in easier. With flat base bullets make sure you have sufficient inside neck chamfer.

Using the K&M expander would likely solve the problem, but you will have VERY light neck seating tension. That may not be a bad thing if you handle the cartridges carefully and do not jam the bullets into the lands. If you do that, just make sure there is enough tension to hold the bullet in place. I seat mine that way and if I twist real hard with my fingers, I can break the bullet loose sometimes.

 

[snakepit]

PM forum member KevinThomas. He works for Lapua and is one of their Technical Representatives.

 

[243winxb]

No expert, but ......

The expander should not be smaller than .222" When loading a round, make sure the rim is behind the extractor. The round can not be fed from a magazine or dropped into the chamber. My Savage will set off a primer without a shoulder to headspace on.

 

[jlow]

As others have pointed out, you need to expand the necks first before you size and use any virgin Lapua 223 brass. It comes new with the neck sized too small....

 

[LCazador]

Your Wilson in-line seating die is a bit too small for the Lapua brass. Wilson sells an OS(over size) seating die in 223 to correct this problem if you're not neck turning. Or you can send your die to Wilson and have it corrected. Call Wilson, they have great customer service!

 

[mikecr]

Something must have seriously changed with Lapua 223 cases recently..
I have never run into any of the issues mentioned here using Lapua cases and Wilson dies.
With my boxes of Lapua brass I simply prep, load, and fireform. No sizing of any kind has ever been needed.
Did you try this?

 

[2dogs]

All measurements that follow were taken with a 1" micrometer and a tube micrometer.

Dillon 223 die expander .223"
Lapua case with a 40 grain NBT seated .250"
Lapua case neck wall thickness .013"
Sized case outside neck dia .2485

I think this brass was over annealed.....

Thoughts?

 

[2dogs]

Mikecr, yes. Same result.

 

[2dogs]

Gstaylorg, mine are .2480 outside neck dia as well from a new box.

 

[2dogs]

Gentlemen, thanks for all your thoughts. I sent Mr Thomas a PM. Perhaps he can shed some light on this. All my best.

 

[2dogs]

No response from Kevin Thomas. Anybody have any other ideas ??

 

[22BRGUY]

Is it possible that it is the FL die is pushing the shoulders back and not the seating die? Are you setting the FL die to touch the shell holder? If so try unscrewing it out maybe half a turn so it doesn't touch the shoulder at all. Just a thought...Best Wishes

 

[jlow]

Your Wilson in-line seating die is a bit too small for the Lapua brass. Wilson sells an OS(over size) seating die in 223 to correct this problem if you're not neck turning. Or you can send your die to Wilson and have it corrected. Call Wilson, they have great customer service!

I use Lapua 223 cases that has not been turned with my Wilson in-line seater and have not had any problem.

 

[Jo2]

LCasador was correct in his analysis of the problem several post ago. The brass, after it was resized, fits into the chamber of the rifle and the bolt closes with a little resistance, just the way it should. When the bullet is seated, the shoulder bulges out slightly and excess headspace is created. You state that a loaded shell has a neck diameter of .250. If you compare new Lapua brass (older Lapua brass had thinner necks) with Rem, Win, or Fed .223 brass you will find the domestic brands had a neck dia in the area of .244-.246 compared to Lapua at .250. The Wilson dies were set up to seat bullets with a minimal amount of run out and to accomplish this they used a die with a minimal amount of neck clearance. My new Lapua brass has a neck dia of .250+ with the bullet seated. I would suggest that your Wilson die has an inside neck dia of .250-.

As an experiment, seat a bullet with a standard 7/8 x14 RCBS or Redding etc 223 seating die in your new brass and then try to fit that finished cartridge into your Wilson seating die. If it won't fit, you have isolated the problem, and you will have to send the die to Wilson to have the neck dia increased. If it slides in easily, I guess the problem lies elsewhere.

 

[2dogs]

22 BR Guy, No, the shoulders are definitely collapsing in the seat process.

 

[2dogs]

As an experiment, seat a bullet with a standard 7/8 x14 RCBS or Redding etc 223 seating die in your new brass and then try to fit that finished cartridge into your Wilson seating die. If it won't fit, you have isolated the problem, and you will have to send the die to Wilson to have the neck dia increased. If it slides in easily, I guess the problem lies elsewhere.

Jo2, I have tried this. When I seated the bullet using the standard seat die not only did the bullet "feel" harder to seat than normal, it also seated a bit cockeyed in the neck. I tried this a couple of times. I took these and tried them in the Wilson die. A bit of pressure on the base straighted out the bullet in the case. They also slipped out easily. Thus I felt the Wilson die was OK. I will check the neck diameter of my Wilson die today when I get home with pin gauges and get the exact inside neck diameter.

I very much appreciate your thoughts and comments Sir.
Also thanks to LCasador.