Need 90gr. Berger VLD advice for a 223 Rem

[Jeromeo]

I am in the process of building another custom 223 rem with a 7" twist. Wondering what your OAL is for your loaded Berger 90gr. VLD's rounds?

I am trying to find an optimal length for effective case capacity so I can build a dummy round for the smith to set the throat length. Also, thinking of using 80gr. Amax if the 90's dont perform amazingly well. I dont care about mag length as I will be single feeding.

I am all ears.

 

[kschilling]

I might be wrong, but I don't think "one size fits all" in this circumstance. There are too many variables. Maybe I'm missing something.....

 

[NateG]

I am in the process of building another custom 223 rem with a 7" twist. Wondering what your OAL is for your loaded Berger 90gr. VLD's rounds?

I am trying to find an optimal length for effective case capacity so I can build a dummy round for the smith to set the throat length. Also, thinking of using 80gr. Amax if the 90's dont perform amazingly well. I dont care about mag length as I will be single feeding.

I am all ears.

I seated a 90VLD so the base was just above the shoulder-neck junction and sent it off to PT&G for a reamer ground to match. In a gun chambered with that reamer (Eliseo RTS for across the course), I'm shooting 80-Amaxes and that reamer has worked *very* well (200-18X at 600) with them, despite being spec'd for the 90s. However, I will say that folks like Laurie Holland who have had success with the 90s recently are running with a good bit longer freebore than I am--even though mine was set up for them.

And, as general advice, the 90s are tough to get working. When they do, there's a big upside, especially in a cartridge-restricted class like Palma or F/TR. On the other hand, they can be frustrating, and a lot of people have given up on them. Like me. I've discovered that I can handle the recoil of the 185-200 (and am slightly tempted to go heavier) grain bullets out of the 308, and that takes away the wind advantage of the .223, trading the extra recoil for the vastly easier solution to the ammo problem.

 

[Jeromeo]

Kschilling,
Trying to get an average OAL from successful shooters so I can set up the barrel for optimal case capacity to maximize velocity and accuracy. Criticize all you want, it's the way I'm going. I understand every rifle is different but there is something to be said when nearly all successful shooters are seating around one certain length. So far, from other sites, that length seems to be around the 2.6" mark.
Thanks for the advice so far.

 

[ar15topgun]

The berger 80.5 and 82 grain bullets work at 1000 also.

 

[FroggyOne2]

On my currrent rifle that I shoot the 90's in, the seating depth is 2.033. This the seating depth that I have been using on this rifle since day one, I have never changed it. It allows the bullet to soft seat and find where it wants to be. With my RL15 load, I have set the neck to have 1 thou of squeeze on the bullet all the way around.this helps with the soft seating. But with the new powder that I have been testing, I have found that it likes goodly annealed brass and 2 thou of squeeze on the bullet.

Set your throat lenght diamentions based on the base to ogive measurements instead of the overall lenght, you will be better off for it.

This rifle now has a lil over 1700 ronds on the bbl, still shooting good for the moment. Not bragging, but I have been graced with the luck of winning a Regional, shot several clean strings and the nice fortune to have shot in the Palma Team match at Perry this year a 449-30X score. This rifle has allowed me to hold as lil as 4 inches of elevation at 1K.

The big question is will I be able to repeat the formula, don't know, but when the new bbl is ready, I not changing any of it.

 

[Heavy barrel]

My OAL is 2.687 including a .025 jam for the Berg 90 VLD's, uncoated, @ 2820 fps. I use lapua brass, wolf 223 primers & 24.7 gr reloader 15. Factory Savage 7 twist barrel throated for the 90's. I've had great luck with this rifle. I haven't had any of the problems with finiky seating depth or elevation problems that some people have.

 

[jscandale]

Jeromeo,

If you are going to shoot the 90's from a .223, you will need a 6.5" twist. The 7" twist will get them to the target but with not very reliable accurace..maybe 2 or 3 moa at 600 yd.
I have shot the 90 for about 10 years now and was the first to win a 1000 yard match at Camp Perry with them in 2002. With that said, they work great, but there is a very small twist window in relation to the rotational velocity for the 90 gr bullet that will keep it accurate without failure.
When I build a .223 AR that is meant to use 90 gr bullets, I always use a 6.5 twist and a special reamer that John Holliger gets the credit for called the .223 Holliger which is nothing more than a .223 Wylde with about .065" additional freebore to acommodate the longer bullet.

JS

 

[FroggyOne2]

JS,

May need that 6.5 twist in. Service Rifle, but in a bolt gun, it is not needed. Laurie uses a 7, Matt P uses a 7, Jerry T. uses a 7.2 and so do I as well use a 7.2 twist. There is no need to have to use that 6.5 twist in every gun. Heck Jerry proved that they will work in a 7.7 twist bbl in a bolt gun. I would not reconmend a 7.7 twist unless your normal temps stay above 75 degrees throughout the year, but we know that most places do not relish in such love in this country. But in my 7.2 twist, it has worked through the seasonal changes of temp changes. Also we have found that it appears that those Berger 90's like odd grooved bbl's as well.

 

[jscandale]

I guess that makes sense since the match rifle barrels are at least 8" longer than a SR bbl. I have a 27" AR match rifle as well and use a 6.5" twist just because. Both the service rifle and te match rifle display excellent accuracy to 600 and 1000 yards. I also use a 3 groove bbl and even have used poly bbls for the 90. My rationing was that the less I stressed the jacket at that kind of rpm, the better.
I have found that the 90 gr bullet needs about 290,000 rpm to be accurately stable, but no more than 325,000.

JS

 

[Matt Pitchon]

JS:

I understand the need for lower limit on RPM for stabilization. Why the upper limit? If my calculation is correct, a 7 twist, at 2900fps, gets something around 300,000rpm, and seems to be working. What am I missing?

Matt

 

[Jeromeo]

Using a blueprinted Remington 700. I am in Canada, where we have ridiculous gun laws, so no AR's for me.
Loving the advice so far.

 

[FroggyOne2]

I will tell you this, brass prep is paramount! Turn necks, trim to same lenght, uniform primer pockets (I use the one that is for Lapua brass),ream flash holes and debur flash holes. I do all of this even on Lapua brass. Weight sort your brass. I seperate it in groups by the tenth of a grain and shoot it from the heaviest to the lightest. The last part may or may not be needed, but it is part of my voodoo and I am not changing it.

 

[jscandale]

JS:

I understand the need for lower limit on RPM for stabilization. Why the upper limit? If my calculation is correct, a 7 twist, at 2900fps, gets something around 300,000rpm, and seems to be working. What am I missing?

Matt

You are correct! I mistyped in my post but just corrected it. Thanks for letting me know.

JS

 

[jscandale]

Froggy is correct, brass prep is very important. With that being true, I always used Lake City primed brass that I got while in the army and the performance was outstanding. I still have a couple of cans of it that I use for the .223 with 90s.

JS

 

[FroggyOne2]

JS,

I have been thinking about using some LC brass myself when I get the new bbl screwed on. After having a long talk with Emil, he has me wanting to at least try it. I know that the AMU is having good luck with it @ 600 yards. I have about 300 pcs right now of already weight sorted 2005 LC brass. Before I can play with it, I will need to get some smaaller bushings. My current smallest bushing will not size the neck down enough to hold the bullet. It is my thinking that I will need at least a 246 bushing, maybe a 245.

 

[jscandale]

I think I used a .244 bushing when I loaded a whole bunch of ammo for the team years ago. It worked very well with the LC primed brass.

A bit of history:
In the beginning of the 90 gr developement, I requested a 6.5" twist bbl for the team to test but got shot down because the AMU told our armorer that they shelved the project for lack of performance, or so they said. It just so happened that our team did not get funding to go anywhere that year following the aftermath or 9/11 so I bought my own bbl. I develped loads for it and took it to Perry. That same season at the Interservice Rifle matches, Chris Hatcher of the AMU shot the first ever 200 at 1000 yds with a service rifle 2 weeks earlier using bullets that were supposedly "shelved". As luck would have it, Chris and I were paired together on the same firing point for the Porter Cup match at Perry. That was the first time I used 90's in a service rifle and to my big surprise, I won.
I can remember asking Chris at the beginning of the match what load they were using in the 90s and he told me that he didn't know. After the match was over and Chris scored my winning target, he asked me what load I was using. I told him that I didn't know either...HA!
Tell Emil that you were talking to me next time you talk to him.

JS

 

[Taildrag15X]

I set up my new Krieger, 28", 1-7" twist Full Bull (1.250") F/TR barrel with a Base to OGIVE measurement of 2.0250", I came to this measurement on my first barrel and stuck with it, setting up dummies of each bullet I wanted to use for both Mid Range and Long Range, ie 77 & 80 gr. Sierra MK's and 77, 80 & 90 gr. Bergers. I found that the AMAX's in 75 & 80gr. weight still work, not as tight as groups (didn't do hard load work up as I didn't plan on using them in the barrel anyway, it was just a test) as in prior barrels that where of, should I say throated more to their "short" bodies.

 

[Jefferson]

rather than start a new topic I am wondering if I can get a LOAD for the 90 grain Berger VLD, 6.5 twist kreiger looking for N150 or varget, the varget load I have suggested is 23.9 (I know that is with a long drop tube) I also have shot BR for a decade so I am familiar with loads and reloading.

also varget at 23.9 15 into lands

I wish to develope a load for the upcoming matches in CANADA, and I know you can PM me if you feel the loads are too hot for the INEXPERIENCED amoung us

thank you


Jeff

 

[robbor]

If your building a new rifle and want to shoot heavy bullets why on earth go with a 223? Ive never understood this fad of choosing one of the smallest cases to shoot one of the heaviest bullets, its not even an optimal case design. Id do a 22br, 6br, 220 beggs, even a 22ppc. Id be more apt to go the 6mm route