Neck tension

[Ghengisahn175]

Couldn't find the thread where someone mentioned this technique but in regards to bushing dies (in this case redding type S) should I first resize with no bushing inside and expander ball to uniform it out then resize with bushing in and no expander ball?

Currently I size with both bushing and expander ball so unsure if I change up my method if it'll make my loads "better" per se or more uniform around the neck

 

[243winxb]

Size with both bushing and expander ball with unturned necks. You want to feel a very light drag as the expander is pulled thru the lubed neck. Or skip the lube and use a carbide expander button.

 

[Pres100]

Ghengisahn175,
There is a reason no one is answering your inquiry. This is Accurate Shooter not a beginner's shooter. This kind of basic question may be better asked at The Firing Line. I mean no offense, just a FYI kind of thing. Here's a link http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php

Kindest regards,

Joe

I should probably let things go, but the guy is here trying to learn from people who are accurate reloaders.... Why the condescending cast off? Ther are lots of people who ask basic questions on the site every day and people come here to learn. Everyone starts somewhere.... As we all did.

 

[bigedp51]

Ghengisahn175

This "IS" AccurateShooter.com and the links below have the answers even though that (explative deleted) Joe R is a horses behind.

How to Load More Concentric Ammo
accurateshooter.com
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

Neck Tension — Not Just Bushing Size
accurateshooter.com
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

Read below with care, off the shelf factory rifles and bushing dies can cause more neck tension and runout problems than they are worth.

Reloading: Two-Step Sizing and Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar (Mr. Salazar has written articles for "AccurateShooter.com)
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

And when all else fails read the dies instructions.

And we have a new award for AccurateShooter.com equestrian gluteus maximus posters. :

 

[L1986]

Im glad you guys chimed in here this post was bugging me so i came back to say something. Im fairly new and inexperianced in the reloading department but have learned alot here and hope to learn alot more! Im happy there are people here that will answer any and all questions!! Thanks guys!

 

[bigedp51]

Im glad you guys chimed in here this post was bugging me so i came back to say something. Im fairly new and inexperianced in the reloading department but have learned alot here and hope to learn alot more! Im happy there are people here that will answer any and all questions!! Thanks guys!

I was going to dress up and wear my Attilla the Hun outfit and tell Joe R to go to the website below.
(but I didn't want to upset our moderator) :

http://www.assholesamongus.com/

I can't wait until Joe R reads these postings and decides to reply........................

 

[Joe R]

Ok Guys, Ghengisahn175,
My bad. I did not mean to offend anyone, it seems that I did, and I apologize for my mistake.

I remember when I first stumbled onto this site about 5 years ago, the subject matter was so far over my head that I didn't even have the courage to post. I did find The Firing Line, and that seemed geared more to beginners like me. After spending a couple of years there reading and getting up to speed I did come back and continue to learn here. I also contribute to this community.

I had well meaning intentions, but obviously that did not come through in my post. Again, I apologize to Ghengisahn175 if I sounded condescending or unkind.

Regards,

Joe

 

[dcali]

The expander ball is a dicey thing- a lot depends on the bushing size and the neck thickness. Ideally, you will be set up so that the expander just barely hits the inside of the case on the way out. The bushing should size things down just enough to fit perfectly. That's not always the situation - sometimes it's a tighter fit than others depending on how much your'e sizing with the bushing. Maybe that's a hint- if you're having expander trouble, your bushing is too small? I don't know.

So sometimes it's just easier to skip the expander altogether. (This is what I usually do). As far as I can tell, it's only benefit is fixing dented case necks, so I just don't get mine dented. Some like to experiment with bushing sizes smaller than normal, and find the expander just gets in the way of that.

Incidentally, this is one of the benefits of neck turning - you eliminate one of the tolerances in the stack up. That should in theory lead to more consistent sizing of the neck and less issue with the expander.

But it's one of those things you kind of have to play with to figure out. Milage may vary.

 

[XTR]

Personally I never use the expanders.

I use Sinclair mandrels to open the necks on new brass, because it is always way to small. I use imperial graphite neck lube when I'm expanding.

I don't turn brass. I FL size then run it in a Lee Collet sizer, they work really well, maybe not .0005 BR groups well, but consistently in the range of ½ MOA vertical at 1000 yards well.

One other option that I know a couple of guys do it size with a bushing one size smaller than you need, then run the over the mandrel.

 

[Shynloco]

Personally I never use the expanders.

I use Sinclair mandrels to open the necks on new brass, because it is always way to small. I use imperial graphite neck lube when I'm expanding.

I don't turn brass. I FL size then run it in a Lee Collet sizer, they work really well, maybe not .0005 BR groups well, but consistently in the range of ½ MOA vertical at 1000 yards well.

One other option that I know a couple of guys do it size with a bushing one size smaller than you need, then run the over the mandrel.

+1. Just another efficient way to get you where you want to be. There are also a few renditions of the above suggested method if concentricity becomes an issue.

Alex

 

[zipollini]

For my 6XC I spray One Shot lube on outside of case and inside of neck and let dry for 5 min. Then FL size with Redding S type die with no expander ball and then use Sinclair Generation II expander right after sizing. SD and ES in low single digits.

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Thanks for all the input fellas. Based on several suggestions and pm's before I get an expander mandrel I'll size with bushing/expander ball then again without expander ball.

Originally I got bushings 1 size smaller than the measured loaded round but on another forum I reported that several cases wouldn't hold the bullet (due to spring back) so I got another size smaller. The second size smaller did fix the ones that wouldn't hold but as I mentioned in my new issue is that some seat slightly different than others.

So with that being said I'll try the following:
fL size with smaller bushing (.333) and expander ball (to take out dents in case
Mouth and open up/uniform bullets), then re size without expander ball but use the .334 bushing. I'll report my findings here when I fire some more route hopefully this weekend.

Thank you bigedp51 for posting the links will definitely give them a read.

Lastly can't get around the inter webs without some thick skin

James

 

[wapiti25]

When using an expander I lube the inside of the necks with Imperial Dry Neck Lube, it really reduces the drag. Bushing dies can be a pain when using un-turned brass, the problem is the neck wall thickness uniformity. Lapua brass is as good as it gets out of the box but a lot of the brass made can have .002" difference from the thick side to thin. If your chamber neck is large (lot's of clearance to the bullet on a fired case) you should try to size using going down in steps (2 bushings), this has been reported as helping with run out on loaded ammo. I like annealed brass even on my hunting rifle ammo. I hope this helps you.

 

[Ghengisahn175]

Wapiti could you elaborate on the step down method with two or more bushings? From my end of specifics, my loaded ammo measures at .335"-.336" . I used a .334" bushing initially but with some issues I posted above got a .333 which solved it but again made some seating more
Noticeable than others.

I'm assuming what I posted as a reply the correct
Way to step down.

 

[Webster]

If fired once isn't the bullet an expander ball. Better than jerking a poorly aligned ball through the neck. The neck turning set contain a high quality expanding mandrel. It's been a year since I turned necks. Even if you used a bushing sizer it could be the correct size for neck tension but the wrong size to get a tight fit on the neck turning mandrel? I didn't read the 13 relies to see what they said. Too time consuming.

 

[arnie]

RCBS suggests that when using the expander ball ,leave it loose in the die until you have sized the case and then run the expander halfway up the neck and then tighten it .

 

[wapiti25]

I have left the expander "lose" but that only works if you remove the de-capping pin. if you have the stem with the de-capper lose you will at some point bend the pin as it will be off center to the flash hole. I de-cap/de-pime with a separate die.
Ghengisahn175, I hope you have read the info from German Salazar. bigedp51 in his post listed a link to German's testing and how to size using steps. In a 30-06 match rifle I have, the chamber is cut to factory dimensions I tried to keep ammo/bullet run-out to below .003". I found using bushing dies give more run-out than using an RCBS neck sizing die. You did not say what caliber and how you use the rifle but turned necks and a custom FL die that is made slightly smaller than your chamber is usually the best but they are costly use a neck lube with the expander and it has solved a lot of the expander problems. I use Imperial Dry Neck Lube but I also hear of others using Hornady One Shot and they do not need to be cleaned out as their is no harm to primer or powder.

 

[bigedp51]

RCBS suggests that when using the expander ball ,leave it loose in the die until you have sized the case and then run the expander halfway up the neck and then tighten it .

In the Speer No.9 reloading manual dated from 1974 there is a chapter called "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques". In this chapter it tells you how to setup your dies and what arnie stated above is mentioned in this chapeter. It also states that more reloaded ammunition has excessive neck runout for the simple reason the expander button is locked down off center than any other reason.

I experimented by buying seven different types and brands of .223 dies and checking neck runout after sizing. And what arnie said is true "BUT" if there is any defects in the extractor groove or case rim the case will be tilted on the down stroke of the ram. These defects will induce and increase neck runout because the case is tilted in the shell holder.

After experimenting with these dies with off the shelf factory rifles I got the worst neck runout with bushing dies and sizing the neck in one step. On top of this I believe it is a waste of time using a bushing die without turning the case necks. And as long as the bushing is free to move from side to side in the die it has "NO" centering effect on the case neck in a standard off the shelf chamber. And German Salazar points this out in his two step sizing article and the increased neck runout.

And I got the least neck runout when I tried using the Forster's high mounted expander that floats installed in a RCBS full length die. With this setup the case neck is supported inside the neck of the die when the floating expander enters the case neck. This holds the case neck centered in the die, it pushes the necks defects to the outside of the case neck and produces the least amount of neck runout. I keep hearing about pulling the case necks with a expander button and there is a very simple fix for this, "LUBE" the inside of the case necks. :

I can also tell you this, we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two dies are the same. The Lee full length dies I have will over resize the cases and the base ends up smaller than if I had sized the case with my RCBS small base dies. And my Redding small base body die also makes the base of the case smaller than my RCBS small base die.

The die I have that produced the least neck runout was a RCBS die with a Forster expander and spindle and a Lee lock ring with its rubber O-ring. This turned my 42 year old RCBS Rockchucker press into a mock Forster Co-Ax press by allowing the die to float and using the Forster floating expander spindle.

I tried using the RCBS expander raised to its highest point with a o-ring under the lock nut, but the case neck was still not being centered by the die. As you can see below Forster unit allows the expander to enter the case neck while it is still centered in the neck of the die.

The sad part of this story is it took me 46 years of playing with dies to figure this out, the rest of the resizing die story is up to you.

And as a side note Lee collet dies doesn't do anything for me because they are so crudely made and damage the case necks.

Look at how the brass is puckered by the collet and the uneven contact inside the case necks.

 

[joejo]

^ looks like you are squeezing too hard with your collet die.

 

[bigedp51]

^ looks like you are squeezing too hard with your collet die.

These are not my cases, these photos came from another website and the collet is rough along the cuts in the collet. These rough areas grab the case neck and cause it to pucker and cause the lines on the outside of the neck where the sharp edges dug into the brass.

Bottom line, Lee needs better quality control and to polish the insides of the collets "after" the cuts are made. My Lee collet dies are not being used and there are better ways to "uniformly" size case necks and control runout.

If you think you are doing a good job with your Lee collet die then turn your necks and use the collet die a few times sizing the necks and then turn the necks again. Your turning tool will be cutting the tops off the puckers (speed bumps), now ask yourself where does the brass go when you compress the neck.