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Neck tension questions here.

I recently purchased a Redding bushing FL sizer in 6.5x284 to replace my RCBS FL die. My groups weren't bad or anything with the RCBS I was just wanting to give the Redding a try. I measured a loaded cartridge as Redding suggested over the phone. I think I went with the .294 if I remember correctly. But I'll check.
I loaded several rounds that I resized with the Redding FL die using the exact data that I used with the RCBS dies. I shoot them today and I'm getting 4" groups at 200 yards now. I'm not sure what's going on. The neck tension with the RCBS is much more than the Redding. I can literally pull the bullets out by hand that are resized with the Redding.
Most info I've read is .001-.002 is best for accuracy. RCBS die has much more tension but is more accurate. Has anyone had similar results with neck tension?
 
Yup being able to tune with neck tension helps find happiness. FWIW there are 3 or 4 other threads here on N.T.. Good info on them.
 
Seems as if you don't have enough neck tension. If you can "pull the rounds" out by hand, imagine where all the pressure loss is.
Did you just get the one bushing or did you get a few more.
What are your measurements with the rcbs dies.
Also are you jumping or jamming the rounds. Every time I change something in my loads its like starting all over again, especially when a variable has changed.
Not to sound like a salesman but I use a Lee collect die, there's no real way to measure neck tension per to say since the neck tension is controled by the inside of the case (which actually holds the projectile) outside neck tension is good if you have a tight chamber or are neck turning.
Go back and shoot some rounds using the RCBS dies to ensure the everything is back in order. Measure a loaded round an a few spent caseings to get an idea if you have the correct bushing.
Hopefully some of my ramblings make sense.
 
When talking to Redding, did you tell them a loaded round neck diameter and then told them to subtract 1-2 thou from this number to get the proper neck tension?

Also, did you measure multiple rounds to get an average? You could have measured a loaded round that is considerably thicker and now some of your bullets are "soft seating" and you're getting very light neck tension.

Why not go with a bushing die? Did you take into account brass spring back? Did Redding give you a drawing of your FL die and what exact neck diameter they reamed out for you?

Lots of questions, but this will help if you maybe made a booboo on your die.

I know some guys that "soft seat" and some guys that do a full 2 thou neck tension.
 
bsumoba said:
When talking to Redding, did you tell them a loaded round neck diameter and then told them to subtract 1-2 thou from this number to get the proper neck tension?

Also, did you measure multiple rounds to get an average? You could have measured a loaded round that is considerably thicker and now some of your bullets are "soft seating" and you're getting very light neck tension.

Why not go with a bushing die? Did you take into account brass spring back? Did Redding give you a drawing of your FL die and what exact neck diameter they reamed out for you?

Lots of questions, but this will help if you maybe made a booboo on your die.

I know some guys that "soft seat" and some guys that do a full 2 thou neck tension.

My Redding FL die is a bushing die. I did measure several loaded rounds to determine which bushing size to go with. As suggested by Redding tech. There is not much tension at .002 . So "soft seating" is definitely not what I'm looking for.
 
Get yourself another bushing .001 and .002 smaller then the one you have. Some guns are critical for the amount of tension they like. Also try to take the expander out and put on the little one to hold the pin. You should have one that came with the die that will hold the pin but not touch the inside of neck. Matt
 
dkhunt14 said:
Get yourself another bushing .001 and .002 smaller then the one you have. Some guns are critical for the amount of tension they like. Also try to take the expander out and put on the little one to hold the pin. You should have one that came with the die that will hold the pin but not touch the inside of neck. Matt

Doesn't it say in the intstructions to do just that? If your pulling it back over the expander you could be sizing the neck back up from the diameter you just sized it down to? I have always put the smaller smooth pin holder when using neckbushing dies.
 
See today's Daily Bulletin for a great explanation. Carbide is best but I prefer steel bushings vs. TiN coated, particularly L.E. Wilson's.
 
LHSmith said:
See today's Daily Bulletin for a great explanation. Carbide is best but I prefer steel bushings vs. TiN coated, particularly L.E. Wilson's.

Peterbilt2007,
Might I suggest you pay close attention to LH's comment about the "Daily Bulletin" for it contains valuable info. Over the years, I've learned (mostly from testing) that "one size" DOESN'T fit all. By that I mean, you can get ideas from other loaders as to the amount of neck tension they use, but in the end and like many other things, your particular rifle will tell you what neck tension she likes best. Of times, I start with the standard .002 and go from there because I'm shooting a BR rifle and not a gas gun. Most of my BR rifles shoots very nicely (tight groups) with a .002 and one (30BR) loves a .001 NT with the brass thickness being quite thin. This is just a variable that works for me and may not work for you in your rifle. When you consider all the variables listed on the "Daily Bulletin" as factors that affect accuracy, therein lies the need for testing individually to find the best accuracy attainable with the potential combination of a load you've prepped. Just something to think about but do read the Bulletin that may prompt some ideas for you to consider in solving the problem or question you've asked.

Alex
 
what i do to find the neck tension i want is to find an average of the neck wall thickness of the brass im using take that number and double it and then add your bullet diameter that will give you the loaded diameter, then from there you can figure out the neck tension you want for your brass (say you come up with a total of .294 then minus the neck tension you want and use that bushing size)
 
Peterbilt2007 said:
I recently purchased a Redding bushing FL sizer in 6.5x284 to replace my RCBS FL die. My groups weren't bad or anything with the RCBS I was just wanting to give the Redding a try. I measured a loaded cartridge as Redding suggested over the phone. I think I went with the .294 if I remember correctly. But I'll check.
I loaded several rounds that I resized with the Redding FL die using the exact data that I used with the RCBS dies. I shoot them today and I'm getting 4" groups at 200 yards now. I'm not sure what's going on. The neck tension with the RCBS is much more than the Redding. I can literally pull the bullets out by hand that are resized with the Redding.
Most info I've read is .001-.002 is best for accuracy. RCBS die has much more tension but is more accurate. Has anyone had similar results with neck tension?

The F/L Bushing Die was a smart decision moving you head and shoulders above the crowd.

Once you've found your load, fine tuning with both neck tension and seating depth is going to pay off.

Each barrel and some powders like N133 for the 6PPC like a lot of tension [.003" or more]. Each combination is different. There's no one size fits all.

If you're seeing different results between different manufacturer's bushing it's probably because the dimensions are slightly off even though they may be marked the same.

Whatever tightens small cloverleaf groups into one hole groups is what you want to use.

Bushings .001", .002", .003" and .004" tighter than your loaded round's Outside Diameter is a good variety to start with. I've seen some shooters use .0005" difference between them but a .001" difference is a good place to begin. :)
 
Peterbilt2007 didn't say he was shooting a 6PPC up in a pressure node. He said 6.5x284, which cannot be used at 6PPC pressures.
He also didn't say whether he was jammed or seated off the lands, or if his resulting tension remaining from sizing actually measures 2thou under cal or not.

Chances are that he has a good bit of seated bearing in the necks, probably as much as the bushing is sizing. This would be nice to know.
All these things would have to be known to even begin speculating about pressure difference as a factor(which tension is all about).
 
Outdoorsman said:
I've seen some shooters use .0005" difference between them but a .001" difference is a good place to begin. :)

Good point. Carbide bushings are available in increments of 0.0005" ( common 6 PPC neck sizes). Using them, the very best competitors can fine tune further illustrating the difference a half thou can make on a target.
 
I have been an advocate of button dies for people that do not turn the necks. I now turn all necks with tight neck or standard chambers and use neck bushing dies for all. When I started out a few years ago, when not turning necks I did just fine with a quality button die. I used Forster back then. Yes, they offer 0.0005 carbide buttons hi-low at certain common sizes. You can polish a standard button to easily gain 0.0005 to experiment with. Any more may damage the hardness. They are cheap to replace if you mess up.

My contention is that if your neck wall thickness is not uniform, sizing the OD of the neck will result in an out of round hole for the bullet to enter. For the first timer, button dies will do just fine. After you graduate to turning necks then bushing dies are the standard.

I also use an arbor press to seat all rounds, including a force feedback indicator. That may be the most important part of my reloading. You can very easily feel the difference with hard or soft to seat bullets. I sort the ones not in the range for sighters and foulers.

Just my 2 cents.
 
mikecr said:
Peterbilt2007 didn't say he was shooting a 6PPC up in a pressure node. He said 6.5x284, which cannot be used at 6PPC pressures.

He also didn't say whether he was jammed or seated off the lands, or if his resulting tension remaining from sizing actually measures 2thou under cal or not.

Chances are that he has a good bit of seated bearing in the necks, probably as much as the bushing is sizing. This would be nice to know.
All these things would have to be known to even begin speculating about pressure difference as a factor(which tension is all about).

Neck tension is measuring correct by bushing size. I'm not jamming into the lands, only very close to touching.
I'm learning that neck tension is a huge factor in accuracy. I'm learning first hand. Be sure to get a couple different size bushings to find what your rifle likes.
 
Never heard of a 'button die'.
If you're talking about sizing buttons, this is common expansion/decapping with sizing dies -whether FL or bushing.
But I follow a contention that pre-expansion is important, and it's important for even more than driving thickness variances outward(away from bullet seating).
Pre-expansion can also reduce excess seating forces which greatly helps in precision seating. You do not want to use bullets to upsize necks.

There is another attribute to manage for those making/storing ammo for future use(not immediate).
When we size brass we add energy to it and cause yielding. That energy wants to go to a lowest state, and continues if it can to do so over time(like memory). Given this, last sizing action is countered with spring back that continues over time but never fully reaching original state(due to grain structure change). This is true of any brass hoop sized anywhere, provided the energy has not be removed (through full annealing).

When you downsize in a die and then remove that die the brass springs back counter to this action(outward). If left to it's own, over time it will continue to spring back outward. When you expand brass, it counters inward.
I have to throw in here that any dimensional change that is not yet causing yielding is not sizing, and not adding energy.
Anyway, where we blindly follow the 2thou under loaded OD rule for bushings there can be occasions where we're actually sizing down 2thou under loaded OD. When the bushing is removed that neck would normally spring back(outward) ~1thou leaving ~1thou interference fit for the bullet. Seating bullet bearing in this neck will not up size it & neither will an expander(button/mandrel). The bullet is held with ~1thou hoop expansive force applied to seated bearing. That's probably enough to shoot today, but over a month or two this will change. The gripping force will drop over time as the counter to last sizing action(downsizing) continues.

Of course there is an opposite scenario;
Someone downsizes with a bushing to 4thou under loaded OD, and then expands the normal neck at cal. It springs back ~1thou(inward) providing as much tension. Over time this will increase 1/4-1/2thou's worth of tension(even while the hoop is held around the bullet). This can be good or bad for you.

There is no dimensional change with bullets seated, but the tension holding can change. You can pull a bullet and measure the hoop change. Actually, you can measure a FL sized case and watch this at any sized diameter, including shoulder bump, and even watch your primers creep over time.
I've found that it takes a plan to load ammo months in advance of a hunt to expect it to shoot the same as fresh ammo.

I'm just throwin this out there, because the implication that we should just continue to downsize necks more & more until a target proves something, is really a generalization for something real. It's something that could be measured, understood, and handled logically.

Peterbilt2007, are you sizing more or less LENGTH of the neck than seated bullet bearing?
 
We are talking 6.5x284 Winchester not the longer throated Norma chamber. Bullets are seated at 2.940 COAL. When I resize my brass (Lapua) I don't feel the expander touching the necks at all. I do resize the the full length of the neck. At 2.940 much of the bullet is inside the case. Hope that info helps.
 
to the OP, You want enough neck tension/bullet grip to where it takes two good whacks with a bullet-puller to pull the bullet on a loaded round. 1 whack=too loose; 3-4 whacks=too tight. Seymour
 
Peterbilt2007 said:
When I resize my brass (Lapua) I don't feel the expander touching the necks at all.
This means something. You said that your sized neck ODs are actually 2thou under loaded OD. What size is your expander button?

Peterbilt2007 said:
I do resize the the full length of the neck. At 2.940 much of the bullet is inside the case. Hope that info helps.
It does help, but your OAL is meaningless without knowing what bullet is seated.
Also, you said you're bushing sizing. This is not normally FL sizing of necks, but partial sizing. You should be able to see how far down the necks you're sizing.

Is this new/annealed brass?
 

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