Neck Tension Question

[David247]

No one on this forum can answer your question because they are so infatuated with tensions.. I have insisted tensions is cute and an easy way to explain everything a bench rester does not understand. For years bench resters have chosen to ignore the case can have resistance to sizing. I suggest you sort your cases according to the amount of effort necessary to seat the bullet. And then you can start over by studying annealing and the effect time has on the neck releasing the bullet.

F. Guffey

What do you mean by, "the effect time has on the neck releasing the bullet"? Are saying that different cases will be harder or softer even after annealing?

 

[Mike F H]

After trimming polish the case mouth with a wad of steel wool,before loading brush the inside of the case neck with a bristle brush and before seating projectiles apply powdered graphite to the inside of the case neck with a soft brush.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I've had an annealing machine since 2011, a Giraud, I double torched it a couple of yrs, really helped. But last week I wanted to anneal some dasher brass after 3 firings, brass I've somewhat struggled with neck tension.
Anyway, I borrowed a friends AMP, he had all the goodies. After I was done processing it, I noticed the inside of the necks were an orangish color, looking at it, my assumption is it burned the carbon from the inside of the necks. My advice would be to brush the inside of the necks with either steel wool, or a bronze brush chucked in a drill, see what happens.
The weather has been crappy here, so I have not powdered some test rds to see how exactly these cases feel. Also going to be an evaluation as to whether an AMP is for me.

 

[dedogs]

trying to belittle the other member.

So it's O.K. for Guffey to belittle other members but it's not O.K. for us to belittle him. Right...you sound like a Democrat. dedogs

 

[JFrank]

I believe it is important to know how to measure a chamber and use a case gauge as well understand sizing.
I am not a machinist nor a Gunsmith.
Many on this site are accomplished as is Mr. G , my wish is that he would start threads and show work in a different way. I would definitely sit in and learn everything possible. Any person that cannot learn from others in my opinion is kidding themselves.
We learn with eyes and ears not with our mouths to coin a phrase.
Just me of course
SPJ

 

[Milo 2.0]

I believe it is important to know how to measure a chamber and use a case gauge as well understand sizing.
I am not a machinist nor a Gunsmith.
Many on this site are accomplished as is Mr. G , my wish is that he would start threads and show work in a different way. I would definitely sit in and learn everything possible. Any person that cannot learn from others in my opinion is kidding themselves.
We learn with eyes and ears not with our mouths to coin a phrase.
Just me of course
SPJ

You may be right, but there is also a tipping point to where it becomes over thinking. So now you know the exact measurement of a chamber, what do you do with that tidbit? A guy can get a close measurement from brass coming out of the chamber, either way it gets sized and refired.
Just say your chamber was poofed out some from reamer specs at .0005", and you find the load of a lifetime for the rifle. When the barrel is shot out, I'd like to be there when you ask the smith to wallow out the new barrel .0005" to match the previous one.

 

[JFrank]

You may be right, but there is also a tipping point to where it becomes over thinking. So now you know the exact measurement of a chamber, what do you do with that tidbit? A guy can get a close measurement from brass coming out of the chamber, either way it gets sized and refired.
Just say your chamber was poofed out some from reamer specs at .0005", and you find the load of a lifetime for the rifle. When the barrel is shot out, I'd like to be there when you ask the smith to wallow out the new barrel .0005" to match the previous one.

I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular of course I was reminded of a time when my girls were frustrated with their high school teachers and what I told them and of my own struggles in life.

 

[Puzzaz01]

I've been playing around with this issue for years, neck tension, annealing, turning brass, champhering, etc. In my personal experience I've found using Imperial dry neck lube while mandrel expanding ( and leaving it in the neck) before seating, it makes the seating a lot more consistent. I then mark my seating pressure with a sharpie on the case and if one has HIGH seating force, I can spend a little more time on it the next time I reload it, maybe expand it twice or dry lube twice, once before running a mandrel through it and again prior to seating. I've also discovered once you get them close they'll stay within 10-15 psi of seating force. Now for the ones that are way off I just toss those the side for foulers.

Keep in consideration this alone doesn't fix everything, you must completely prep the brass and I mean completely. You must turn the necks to a uniform desired measurement, trim the necks precisely square, a smooth chamfer by using 0000 steel wool just on the chamfer and leave the carbon in the case, do not tumble them clean.
I hope this helps, it works great for me.

Darrin

 

[Milo 2.0]

I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular of course I was reminded of a time when my girls were frustrated with their high school teachers and what I told them and of my own struggles in life.

Cool, I was just trying to put things in a reasonable perspective.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I've had an annealing machine since 2011, a Giraud, I double torched it a couple of yrs, really helped. But last week I wanted to anneal some dasher brass after 3 firings, brass I've somewhat struggled with neck tension.
Anyway, I borrowed a friends AMP, he had all the goodies. After I was done processing it, I noticed the inside of the necks were an orangish color, looking at it, my assumption is it burned the carbon from the inside of the necks. My advice would be to brush the inside of the necks with either steel wool, or a bronze brush chucked in a drill, see what happens.
The weather has been crappy here, so I have not powdered some test rds to see how exactly these cases feel. Also going to be an evaluation as to whether an AMP is for me.

I will never anneal without ss pin cleaning first. I dont want to cook that carbon nor have it hold heat or insulate

 

[Milo 2.0]

I will never anneal without ss pin cleaning first. I dont want to cook that carbon nor have it hold heat or insulate

Interesting, I corn cob tumble before and after annealing with torches, once I got the over annealing phase out of my system, it has worked fine here. Carbon intact. We all take different paths to our perceived successes.

 

[JimSC]

We all take different paths to our perceived successes.

Experimenting and considering new ways of doing things is 90% of the fun of this hobby for me. There is a old saying in the woodworking shop shop that if you tell ten woodworkers to join two pieces of wood together they will do it ten different ways and all will be correct.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Interesting, I corn cob tumble before and after annealing with torches, once I got the over annealing phase out of my system, it has worked fine here. Carbon intact. We all take different paths to our perceived successes.

What i found is tempilaq doesnt work with the carbon insulating the inside and also found that the heat color is different on back to back cases cleaned and not cleaned. Thats the only reason i only anneal bare brass but i know youre having good luck your way so ill sure not argue- theres a few ways to skin the cat for sure

 

[Milo 2.0]

What i found is tempilaq doesnt work with the carbon insulating the inside and also found that the heat color is different on back to back cases cleaned and not cleaned. Thats the only reason i only anneal bare brass but i know youre having good luck your way so ill sure not argue- theres a few ways to skin the cat for sure

You are 100% correct on carbon being an insulator. I've learned a lot annealing over the years and really do not like discussing it on the web, we all have a plan. I would never say my way is the right way, or the only way, just that it works for me.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You are 100% correct on carbon being an insulator. I've learned a lot annealing over the years and really do not like discussing it on the web, we all have a plan. I would never say my way is the right way, or the only way, just that it works for me.

Thats because im sure youve tested it as very few actually have

 

[Milo 2.0]

Thats because im sure youve tested it as very few actually have

Not certain what you mean, I have no means of testing brass hardness, or the knowledge to do it. After processing annealed brass, I seat a bullet in 2 empty sized cases, if neck tension feels off, I adjust with a bushing size change. I've read countless times that I cannot have any feel with a coax and a Redding comp seater but yet again it works here. I cull ones that feel like a hotdog is sliding down a hallway. shoot closer ranges, have found tougher to seat rds, seem to fall into place. There are no spastic motions when I seat bullets, one smooth stroke the same every go.
PS and ssshhh, I did just order a K&M arbor press with gauge, Wilson seaters for XC and Dasher, I do not want the dalai lama to know I'm about to get a grip on neck tensions, or tentions, blah blah

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Not certain what you mean, I have no means of testing brass hardness, or the knowledge to do it. After processing annealed brass, I seat a bullet in 2 empty sized cases, if neck tension feels off, I adjust with a bushing size change. I've read countless times that I cannot have any feel with a coax and a Redding comp seater but yet again it works here. I cull ones that feel like a hotdog is sliding down a hallway. shoot closer ranges, have found tougher to seat rds, seem to fall into place. There are no spastic motions when I seat bullets, one smooth stroke the same every go.
PS and ssshhh, I did just order a K&M arbor press with gauge, Wilson seaters for XC and Dasher, I do not want the dalai lama to know I'm about to get a grip on neck tensions, or tentions, blah blah

Did you get the gage face to read in tensions?

 

[Milo 2.0]

Did you get the gage face to read in tensions?

Of coarse I did. All they had in stock anyway.

 

[Puzzaz01]

Of coarse I did. All they had in stock anyway.

Y'all crack me up!

Darrin

 

[paulT]

I am seating 130 gr. Berger hybrids bullets for a 6.5 Creedmoor using a Wilson chamber seating die and an arbor press and force gauge. I have some that seat at roughly 40 pounds, an equal number that seat in the eighty pound range and a few that are over 100 pounds and I am not sure why.

Here is my process using Lapua brass: I decap, tumble, anneal with Amp annealer every loading, resize with Reading bushing type die with the de-capping rod and expander removed, resize inside of necks with a Sinclair mandrel die, prime, charge, and seat with Wilson chamber die and a K&M arbor press. I also just got a 21st Century hydro arbor press to see if I get a more accurate seating pressure reading but have not used it yet. All of the other normal brass prep work is also done like cleaning primer pockets, check COAL, and all brass gets trimmed, chamfered, and deburred using a Giraud unit. All cases are on their third reloading.

Any ideas why the seating force range might be so different from case to case?

Thanks

Did you neck turn brass
Also whats the thou difference between your neck size bushing and expander mandral when you finally set neck tension.