Neck tension problem

[Grimstod]

Then why are some OK, and others are not? Were all at the same OAL?

OAL jumps all over the place, almost .002-+ but that is because of inconsistent, well in this case a total lack of, neck tension.

 

[Grimstod]

By the way Grimstod, get a pin gauge to check your micrometer and calipers. I'm very familiar with the Berger 200 hybrids and my measuraments and experience don't jive with your mic's readings. It could also be that the 190's are different.


View attachment 979598
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I will check with the set we have at the machine shop. I have never had any issue with this mic though. It has always given me a good reading.

 

[fguffey]

I also anneal with a drill, I do it for 6 seconds. If you're annealing longer there will be less spring back so you will need a smaller (.325 or .324) bushing.

Anneal with a drill; I suggest reloaders decide on factors, In my opinion if I follow your instructions that follow “If you're annealing longer” there is at least one factor that is missing.


F. Guffey

 

[Joe R]

What thickness did you turn the necks to? These are unturned but still thin at .0105

I turn mine to approximately .010. As you know, when one starts turning necks this thin, funny things start to happen with neck tension. A friend of mine recently told me that he waits a day after resizing brass before going further, because the brass is still not stable and will continue to move. That's a likely explanation of why the bullets were loose when you got to the range. I also use the foam inserts in my MTM boxes to keep the ammo from vibrating during car rides. There are times I seat the bullets long and don't finish seating them all the way down until at the range the day of the match.

I don't use an expander ball because I believe it is ineffective and produces inconsistent results. A ball acts as a wave while going through the neck and I don't want that. When I expand my necks to produce consistent neck tension up and down the whole neck I use a Sinclair die with expander mandrels ( http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...ir-generation-ii-expander-dies-prod38807.aspx ). I have custom made expander mandrels and as other have pointed out .0001 change in diameter will make a difference, so your mic has to measure to .00005 or better. You can have finer control on neck tension with a mandrel than you can with a bushing. As you know the bushing only works on the outside what we're interested in is in the inside diameter. So it is much simpler to squeeze the neck down and then shove a carbide mandrel down the neck and hold it there for 5 seconds. Voila, consistent neck tension down the whole length of the neck. IMO, in reloading, neck tension is the most difficult of all steps to get right every time. I believe once you have mastered that ESs will come down. I'm still trying to work out my issues. It's like an onion, every time I start to look closely I discover more layers. Hence sorting bullets by diameter, adding more steps to my process is not what I really want to do. Right now I'm testing to see if that really makes a difference in the data and/or on target.

Good luck.

Joe

 

[jlow]

What thickness did you turn the necks to? These are unturned but still thin at .0105

Unturned necks can have as much as 2 thousands difference in thickness at different portions of the neck, but even 0.5 thousands will make a significant difference if your clearance is on the edge. This is basically the reason why people who use bushing dies have to turn their necks.

 

[Judd]

Lay a bullet next to one of those so we can see how far down in the case the bullet is. Specifically is the pressure ring below the neck/shoulder junction? I've had bullets where the pressure ring was big enough to open the neck up and I lost all neck tension...didn't seat the bullet as deep (where pressure ring was above the neck/shoulder junction) and it would hold.

Good luck, it's frustrating when something like this is going on.

This is why I asked this question back on page one. I've experienced what your gunsmith is telling you before. It was either on a 30br or 6.5x47...I can't remember...but you get the pressure ring below the case neck/shoulder junction and it can happen. You either need more freebore added to that chamber, you need to seat them longer or you need to switch bullets.

That's my 2 cents worth exactly what you paid for it

 

[barefooter56]

So I am working on a wildcat. This is a .308x54r Improved. Shoulder moved forward about .190 and a 40d shoulder. Barrel is a 308 and I am shooting 308 Berger 190gr VLD bullets.

I Just got in a new bushing for my custom made Redding Type S Die. Its a titanium .327 bushing. Sized brass is measuring .328 neck and a loaded bullet is .3295 on my micrometer. Yet I still do not have enough neck tension. This brass has only been fired twice. I can actually push the bullet in with my finger and the air pressure makes it pop back out.


Below is a photo of two. One is how long I seat them and the second one I pushed in farther with my finger. Very light pressure to do it too.

Here is how many I am loosing. the batch in the shell holder are good. The rest on the table are too loose.

If the expander ball is still on the decapping assembly. Take it off and retry. Once the brass has been fired the expander ball is not necessary since you are not over sizing the neck down so it needs to be re-expanded like with a standard die.
Take care,

 

[dkhunt14]

What thickness did you turn the necks to? These are unturned but still thin at .0105

That is the thinnest unturned necks I ever heard of. Most necks are .015 plus on unturned brass. I too would like to see a bullet sitting alongside a seated one. From what I am seeing on the amount of bearing sticking out the case I can't believe the pressure ring is past the shoulder junction. Matt

 

[Webster]

I have been struggling with this for over a year now. Never had problems with short 168r Bergers or 155r Hornady. All the things recommended, annealing, bushing size, expander ball removal etc. have been tried multiple times.

If you only had problems with the 190 Gr Bergers why don't you just quit using them. When something doesn't work you reach a point where have to give up and go on to something else. You already know what works. All the problems go away. You don't have to get your chamber modified or buy a bunch of expensive gauges that will probably accomplish nothing. It sounds like a rifle that was not made for serious competition. If the 155 or 168 gr bullets shoot good use them. Interesting only the 190 Bergers gave a problem.

I don't think you are over annealing with 700F Templaq. The neck can heat much quicker than the shoulder. A lot depends on what part of the flame touches the case. The small pointed inner flame is the hottest. Put the Templaq inside the neck. If the necks start to show red in a dark room you are in the temperature range of very rapid hardness change (red = about 1050F). When I initially set up my annealing with a single flame handheld torch I determined how long it took for the neck to start to show red with my setup (about 11-12 sec.) I now anneal for 8 sec. A simple test for grossly over annealing is to crush the neck closed with pliers and compare how it feels to an un-annealed case. A case neck that is near dead soft will crush with very little effort. You can squeeze the neck about 5-10 thou oval with your fingers. On my annealed cases it takes the same force to squeeze the neck down as a never annealed case. No matter how hard I squeeze with my fingers I cannot move the case neck. So I know that whatever hardness I am getting the cases definitely are not over annealed. Plus I did annealing studies at work on 6BR cases at work and put the results on this website at least four times.

If your rifle is a Mosel Mil surplus check the receiver for cracks. A friend of mine had a big crack on his receiver. I was at the range and saw it. He was using standard Mil surplus ammo. He was lucky he wasn't hurt. The rifle should only use light loads.

 

[Ggmac]

Than start turning necks and use a smaller bushing . You get a custom reamer made , you go all out on a Mosin , good barrel , etc but you still don't turn necks . You worry about runout and try to straighten , still not turning necks .
If some of your cases are holding bullets , figure out why those are working , keep brass separate , # of loadings , weight , neck length and thickness .
Have you tried a Lee collet die ? Easy enough to adjust neck tension .

 

[Grimstod]

That is the thinnest unturned necks I ever heard of. Most necks are .015 plus on unturned brass. I too would like to see a bullet sitting alongside a seated one. From what I am seeing on the amount of bearing sticking out the case I can't believe the pressure ring is past the shoulder junction. Matt

I will try to get you a photo Friday. My reloading stuff is at my fiancés place.

 

[Grimstod]

Than start turning necks and use a smaller bushing . You get a custom reamer made , you go all out on a Mosin , good barrel , etc but you still don't turn necks . You worry about runout and try to straighten , still not turning necks .
If some of your cases are holding bullets , figure out why those are working , keep brass separate , # of loadings , weight , neck length and thickness .
Have you tried a Lee collet die ? Easy enough to adjust neck tension .

Custom reamer will be next. I think when this barrel is done I will get a proper reamer and sizing reamer. Might go the 7mm rout too. I think the case would be almost perfectly balanced. Not to much over bore and not to underpowered. Sorta like the 6.5x47

 

[Grimstod]

That is the thinnest unturned necks I ever heard of. Most necks are .015 plus on unturned brass. I too would like to see a bullet sitting alongside a seated one. From what I am seeing on the amount of bearing sticking out the case I can't believe the pressure ring is past the shoulder junction. Matt

The black line is as far down as the bushing goes with the Type S die. Moving the throat out another .080 to .100 should do the trick.

 

[243winxb]

Then why are some OK, and others are not? Were all at the same OAL?? The answser is - Unturned brass with a variation of .002" needs to be sized down far enough so that an expander can open "ALL NECKS" to the same inside diameter. This requires a " SMALLER BUSHING " and an expander that is smaller than bullet diameter by .0015" to .002" Forget about the Berger pressure ring that can be as much as .0008" larger than bullet diameter. Your necks are to thin already, so you can not turn them. I do use a Redding S type FL bushing die and Berger bullets with turned and unturned necks.

 

[243winxb]

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If the brass has not been neck turned, your problem is, some neck walls are thicker than others. The thin wall ones doesn't hold the bullets with enough neck tension. Use a smaller bushing, with light drag on the expander to get uniform neck tension. If brass has been neck turned, still just use a smaller bushing.

As i said in post #11.. Hope this helps. Good luck.