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Neck tension....one more time

Burning some daylight today, I was re-considering the possible variables that impact neck tension and bullet release in my 6 Dasher. My list of processes to try and be a very consistent with my brass neck "tension" include:
- Annealing after every 3rd firing
- Sorting fired brass rounds by # times fired
- Consistant brass neck thickness (+/- .0002)
- Brass washed in SS Tumbler after every firing
- Light chamfering inside and out after every firing
- Dipping bullets in grafite lube at seating
- Check/confirm concentricity
One thing I did stop doing is measuring and sorting the loaded rounds by bullet seating "force" with a lbs force gauge.
Any input on adding to consistancy in my reloading process would be appreciated on-line or by PM.
Ben
 
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What discipline are you shooting? Sounds a lot like 1K BR. I'm interested in the replies you get.

It is just my opinion that SS media is more trouble than it's worth, especially since you're adding lube back for the simple fact that you've removed it (carbon in neck.)

I firmly believe that I get better accuracy with brass tumbled in new green media after every firing than with any other method. I always tumble it for roughly 12 hours.

I prefer to anneal every other firing, but nothing wrong with every third.

I congratulate you on being every bit as OCD as myself. It makes for a good hand loader.

Clancy
 
Burning some daylight today, I was re-considering the possible variables that impact neck tension and bullet release in my 6 Dasher. My list of processes to try and be a very consistent with my brass neck "tension" include:
- Annealing after every 3rd firing
- Sorting fired brass rounds by # times fired
- Consistant brass neck thickness (+/- .0002)
- Brass washed in SS Tumbler after every firing
- Light chamfering inside and out after every firing
- Dipping bullets in grafite lube at seating
- Check/confirm concentricity
One thing I did stop doing is measuring and sorting the loaded rounds by bullet seating "force" with a lbs force gauge.
Any input on adding to consistancy in my reloading process would be appreciated on-line or by PM.
Ben
Why did you stop using a force gauge? Wasn't the information useful? A better measurement would be to know the force to pull the bullet out of the case. The initial force to start it moving and the force needed to keep it moving until it exits the neck. This can't be done on loaded rounds of course. It would be possible to check a few cases in a certain lot that were prepped exactly the same. I'm going to try an electronic scale (similar to a fish scale) that reads by .01 lb to 110 lbs and see if I can read off the press handle pulling the bullet with a collet puller. Hopefully I'll learn something other than it being a waste of time. Being retired, time is something I have plenty of.
 
I have never cleaned or tumbled my cases, take steel wool to the case body ever once n awhile, and I always clean the nks before running through the dies, clean ppokets that's about it
 
Look, neck tension effects tune. There is no shiny case trophy. Test and believe your results. A friend recently shot a five group (five shots per group) unlimited 100 yard average of .0840 in a unsanctioned match that was run according to benchrest rules, he never tumbles, vibrates, steel pins or even cleans the inside of his necks. He may clean his primer pockets once a day if he thinks about it. All of this is based on actual testing that he has done. Admittedly short range and long are different but it seems to me that fellows can get led astray by their assumptions. Something that gets little mention on the internet is dry fire practice.
Too many do not realize that they and not their equipment are the weak link. Dry fire allows you to see mistakes that would be missed because of the recoil and noise of live fire. A fellow that I have spent a lot of time working with finally tried it and now he dry fires before and after the days shooting.
 
What is the chance that the brass has expanded in the chamber before the bullet has even moved?
This is what happens.
But with consistent carbon fouling, seating force can indirectly indicate tension differences.

With SS pin cleaning seating forces will go all over the map regardless of tension, and you'd need to spend more efforts getting target CBTO. So it makes sense that you dropped seating force measure.
But if I were you, I'd would rake all that SS cleaning stuff into a trash can, and start making good dirty ammo.
 
Seems the more you shoot brass without cleaning the more it builds up carbon at a varying thickness on the case and neck walls? If you were to clean the case back to no carbon and could add something to the inside of the neck to eliminate the "stickiness" and make it slick again you could trust seating force gauge readings. Am I missing something? If I SS tumble and seat when dry my seating force reads from 40-75lbs after adding lube to the neck its a consistent 28-35lbs. Not cleaning at all they seat from 35-60. Same bushing used on all cases.
 
If you are getting different seating pressure readings with the same bushing depending on the condition of the inside of your necks, perhaps you need to vary your bushing and test at similar seating forces. Most of the primer test that I have read held every thing constant except the primer. The problem is that since velocity can vary quite a bit with different primers and tune is related to velocity/pressure what is happening is that the load is only in tune with perhaps one or two primers...but the tester is just sure that he has discovered which primer is better. The same thing applies here. Some time back I was working with a fellow who has a really well built .308. He took the conventional approach with sizing, trying various bushing sizes in his FL die. After he floundered a while I suggested that he pull the bushing from his die and use it as a body die after first sizing necks with a collet die. His results improved. He was shooting Varget, which seems to get along well with light neck tension. He tried different mandrel diameters just like he had different bushings. The thing that I never succeeded in getting him to do was to take his loading kit to the range every time so that he could make adjustments as needed. That one think blocks many from getting where they want to be. The other thing is "it would seem". Test and believe the results, but be sure that your tests are designed properly. If any factor that you are testing can vary velocity you need to compensate, probably with powder charge to keep velocity constant.
 
Burning some daylight today, I was re-considering the possible variables that impact neck tension and bullet release in my 6 Dasher. My list of processes to try and be a very consistent with my brass neck "tension" include:
- Annealing after every 3rd firing
- Sorting fired brass rounds by # times fired
- Consistant brass neck thickness (+/- .0002)
- Brass washed in SS Tumbler after every firing
- Light chamfering inside and out after every firing
- Dipping bullets in grafite lube at seating
- Check/confirm concentricity
One thing I did stop doing is measuring and sorting the loaded rounds by bullet seating "force" with a lbs force gauge.
Any input on adding to consistancy in my reloading process would be appreciated on-line or by PM.
Ben

Are you chamfering the necks inside and out after every firing because of damage to them by the SS tumbling? Otherwise why??
I chamfer ONCE when new. Then ONLY when I have to trim.
BUT I only use a vibrating tumbler with walnut media that maybe gets changed once a year.
 
There is no shiny case trophy.
There might be in our fastest-growing hobby - turning fired cases into jewelry. A competition sanctioning body may be organizing as we speak.

Dry fire allows you to see mistakes that would be missed because of the recoil and noise of live fire. A fellow that I have spent a lot of time working with finally tried it and now he dry fires before and after the days shooting.
Golfers video their swings for analysis. Dry fire sight picture could well be worth capturing on video. Why not? I see hunt videos taken through scopes. Hmmm...
-
 
We're fortunate to have the carbon layer provided by firing. Without it, someone would sell it to us..
Standard vibratory tumbling, nylon brush necks, twist out pocket fouling, no problems.
OK Mike, but, I have one more question: how are diamonds made? Maybe pressure, heat and carbon ? Expanding mandrels are scratched when used in a dirty case neck and yes, even carbide. Might it be better, slightly, to clean the neck ID and replace with a thin layer of carbon like lube on a surface finish that will aid in holding the lube and sliding?
 
Steve there are many things that would work. I believe tungsten disulphide is as close to carbon fouling as it gets, while providing lower friction coefficient. But it's hard to believe this would provide a potential to justify removing the carbon layer, for that substitution of it.
 

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