Neck tension for "in the lands"?

[savagedasher]

Both powders shoot equally well but RL26 is 120 fps faster and still testing temp sensitivity.

Never shot 26 so I can't help. N560 looks great also. Larry

 

[savagedasher]

That's what the graphs above show. One in the lands and one off. I run a Oehler 43 so I pressure test most everything and QL, if good data is put in is really close in predictions.

I also tested H1000 but I did not have enough case capacity and barrel length.

If a case isn't 100 plus full I don't use it for competition . Larry

 

[mikecr]

To the OP's question, holding CBTO through soft seating conditions is a matter of seating FRICTION (not neck tension).
This can be any amount needed via interference fit past seated bullet bearing(which is always a bullet shelf condition).
This is not free though,, it will increase tension as well, as the unexpanded portion of neck will heavily bind the bullet base-bearing junction. In other words, this is a condition that increases both seating friction and tension.

Together, you're looking at 3 major changes at once(+ other minors) in seating testing deep in the lands(ITL) settings.
-Higher starting pressure
-Higher neck tension
-The seating setting itself
This makes OTL -vs- ITL seating results(for seating in itself) difficult to compare, as you can't separate these attributes while ITL.

 

[500Stroker]

I've always loaded with a jump of .005-,100 but have been reading so many people go "into the lands". When you do that, do you have to increase neck tension a lot? How do you verify that bullet remains at same seating unless you have a lot of neck tension? If you increase neck tension then that will change pressure also???
Appreciate someone clearing me up on all this.
Thanks,
Regis

If you are off the lands know and it's working for you why would you change? I have done a fair amount of load development in and off the lands, I have found no big advantage to jamming the bullet into the lands. Do some testing and stick with what works for you and your barrel. Do just jump into what is trending, I have made that mistake it was no fun.
Good Luck

 

[RonAKA]

I find the opposite of the poster above. Neck tension does not increase for me with multiple firings it decreases as the neck hardens. You can either anneal or go to a smaller neck bushing to get the grip

Thought about this a little more, and I think the effect depends on your specific sizing process. In the standard FL sizing die method with an expander ball, you oversize down, and then expand the neck more open as the last step. In that method, I believe you would be getting more tension as the case work hardens and gets stronger. There would be more springback on the expanding step.

However if you simply size the neck down and don't use an expander ball, then you don't oversize down, and the springback occurs on the compression stage, not the expansion stage. In that case I would agree that your neck tension reduces as the case gets stronger.

In other words it depends on whether your last step is a compression step, or an expansion step.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Thought about this a little more, and I think the effect depends on your specific sizing process. In the standard FL sizing die method with an expander ball, you oversize down, and then expand the neck more open as the last step. In that method, I believe you would be getting more tension as the case work hardens and gets stronger. There would be more springback on the expanding step.

However if you simply size the neck down and don't use an expander ball, then you don't oversize down, and the springback occurs on the compression stage, not the expansion stage. In that case I would agree that your neck tension reduces as the case gets stronger.

In other words it depends on whether your last step is a compression step, or an expansion step.

In my case I use a neck bushing die with no expanding button.
I don't think expanding buttons are commonly used by any BR shooters

 

[savagedasher]

In my case I use a neck bushing die with no expanding button.
I don't think expanding buttons are commonly used by any BR shooters

I shoot my brass long enough that I get a donut. With a expander ball it changes my bump . The bushing die I only size half of the neck . Why someone would shoot a bullet in the lands is beyond me . Larry

 

[RonAKA]

In my case I use a neck bushing die with no expanding button.
I don't think expanding buttons are commonly used by any BR shooters

I use a hybrid method with my Forster Bushing Bump Die. They do not come with an expander ball, but I ordered one and use it. The bushing size just sizes the neck down just enough that the exapander ball only opens the neck up 1-1/2 a thou. My view is that it gives me better control of the ID while sacrificing the OD size control. I also do not notice any significant change in neck tension as the brass goes through up to 5 firings. Forster locate their expander ball very high in the case, just below the shoulder. This is to minimize any tendency of the ball to induce concentricity issues. Overall I find it works well because I do not turn my brass, and I would rather have any irregularities on the OD, not the ID. I only partially size the neck, so I depend on the unsized portion to center the cartridge neck, along with the jammed bullet.

 

[dkhunt14]

I shoot my brass long enough that I get a donut. With a expander ball it changes my bump . The bushing die I only size half of the neck . Why someone would shoot a bullet in the lands is beyond me . Larry

Because they shoot better. Matt

 

[Tim Singleton]

On the use of the word Jam. I don't and I don't know anyone who does shoot the bullet so far into the lands that it would stick and pull out upon extraction

With the neck bushing I'm using at the time I load the bullet in a dummy round out long enough that it is seated deeper in the case when the bolt is closed. I double check this measurement
I learned it from guys who are out there competing
This is what I call jam as the bullet won't go any deeper into the lands without sticking
I then work the bullet deeper into the case .003 at a time testing. With the bushing and bullets with my reamer I usually find something around the .008 to .011 off jam. But I am still into the lands
This maybe more of a short range thing I realize long range shooter are much further off the lands
I don't know if the OP said what he was shooting

 

[dkhunt14]

This is what I call jam as the bullet won't go any deeper into the lands without sticking
I then work the bullet deeper into the case .003 at a time testing. With the bushing and bullets with my reamer I usually find something around the .008 to .011 off jam. But I am still into the lands
This maybe more of a short range thing I realize long range shooter are much further off the lands
I don't know if the OP said what he was shooting

I shoot 1000 yard and that is pretty much where I am at. Usually .010 to .015 in the lands. Most top 1000 yard BR guys are pretty much the same place. I would say as high as 90 percent are there. Then you have the ones that don't know where they are at. Like the ones that tell me they are jumping them, then they open the bolt and let a bullet stick. Bullets don't stick by jumping them. They have to be in hard. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

I shoot 1000 yard and that is pretty much where I am at. Usually .010 to .015 in the lands. Most top 1000 yard BR guys are pretty much the same place. I would say as high as 90 percent are there. Then you have the ones that don't know where they are at. Like the ones that tell me they are jumping them, then they open the bolt and let a bullet stick. Bullets don't stick by jumping them. They have to be in hard. Matt

I definitely Jump mine .jamed got years. When I realized I could lower Es with seating depth the game change . I know I can't shoot by my gun do . Larry

 

[Shynloco]

This is likely the correct answer. To understand this, think of it this way - The reason is as work hardening increase, your ability to size down the neck using a bushing decrease due to the spring back. If you cannot size down as much, your neck tension will decrease since the ID of the neck is bigger.

I agree..but isn't that the reason we anneal our brass so we don't get to that point?

Alex

 

[savagedasher]

I shoot 1000 yard and that is pretty much where I am at. Usually .010 to .015 in the lands. Most top 1000 yard BR guys are pretty much the same place. I would say as high as 90 percent are there. Then you have the ones that don't know where they are at. Like the ones that tell me they are jumping them, then they open the bolt and let a bullet stick. Bullets don't stick by jumping them. They have to be in hard. Matt

I know where mine is and I keep moveing out watching the bullet speed . Normally I find a spot that the ES stabilize . Then I tune with the tuner . Larry

 

[RonAKA]

Bullets don't stick by jumping them. They have to be in hard. Matt

Or some combination of light neck tension and a jam. Some of my lighter bullet loads are not seated very far into the neck, and combined with a light neck tension, I can pull the bullet out of a loaded case with my fingers. While it does not make a lot of sense that if they are that light, they should stick in the barrel, but I have had it happen.

Same issue when I am testing my split neck dummy round to find the lands. Sometimes you push the bullet back into the case, and other times the bullet catches and it pulls partly back out again. It requires some patience and repeated testing using this method to establish the real touch the lands point. When I seat to "jam" 0.010" I'm quite certain it does not jam that far. It goes as far in as it wants and then the bullet pushes back in the case.