Neck Sizing with a Bushing Die without Neck-Turning Cases

[South Pender]

I normally neck-turn cases and use bushing dies, but I'm asking for a friend who'd like to avoid neck turning. As I understand it, sizing with a bushing die makes the most sense when you first turn the necks. This allows you to get consistent neck tension upon seating a bullet. However, does it make sense to use a bushing die (either a neck-only die or a FL die) on cases that have not first been neck-turned? On the face of it, this would seem to cause inconsistent neck tension on bullets since the case neck thickness may vary among cases, or would any neck-thickness variation be too trivial to matter (assuming that the same brand and lot of cases is used)? What do you all think about this?

 

[Eagle Six]

I think the more consistent the neck thickness is the more consistent interference fit will be with less runout. With that said I stopped grinding on necks way back. 6.5 Creedmoor, Redding FL Type S bushing die using SAC bushings. I bump the shoulder .003 and neck size for .003 interference fit. Works for me and my purpose.

 

[DaveTooley]

My 6BR is a no turn neck and I use a FL bushing die. I err on the side of more neck tension instead of less because the bullet acts like an expander mandrel and I think that evens any variation in neck tension.

 

[BoydAllen]

With unturned necks you can pick a bushing that gives your expander or expander ball very little work to do. This slight expansion will not make the case crooked but it will uniform the shape and size of the case neck ID.

 

[South Pender]

With unturned necks you can pick a bushing that gives your expander or expander ball very little work to do. This slight expansion will not make the case crooked but it will uniform the shape and size of the case neck ID.

Thanks, Boyd. I guess I was thinking that bushing dies did not have an expander button. I've always used L.E. Wilson neck-sizing dies with bushings. Do other makes of bushing dies contain an expander button to work along with the bushings?

 

[Webster]

I normally neck-turn cases and use bushing dies, but I'm asking for a friend who'd like to avoid neck turning. As I understand it, sizing with a bushing die makes the most sense when you first turn the necks. This allows you to get consistent neck tension upon seating a bullet. However, does it make sense to use a bushing die (either a neck-only die or a FL die) on cases that have not first been neck-turned? On the face of it, this would seem to cause inconsistent neck tension on bullets since the case neck thickness may vary among cases, or would any neck-thickness variation be too trivial to matter (assuming that the same brand and lot of cases is used)? What do you all think about this?

What's the rifle used for? If he was shooting any level of competition he should already know the answer. If your worried about it just turn the necks and be done with it.

 

[South Pender]

What's the rifle used for? If he was shooting any level of competition he should already know the answer. If your worried about it just turn the necks and be done with it.

He's not a competitive shooter. He has a very nice new 6 PPC rifle, but it's not a BR rig.

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks, Boyd. I guess I was thinking that bushing dies did not have an expander button. I've always used L.E. Wilson neck-sizing dies with bushings. Do other makes of bushing dies contain an expander button to work along with the bushings?

Yes. Some give you the option of an expander or a decapping pin retainer that does not expand. To make this more interesting, Redding dies work with the Whidden expander assemblies and Whidden offers sets of expander balls in different diameters for a caliber. Expander balls seem to always gotten a bad rap, but the real problem has been that one piece dies' neck IDs are so small that the axial force on the case, as they are expanded causes the brass in the shoulder to yield slightly,and unevenly, resulting in cocked necks. If you pair an expander ball with a bushing so that you can hardly feel the expander working on the sized neck, this does not take place. I have done it.

 

[mikecr]

On the face of it, this would seem to cause inconsistent neck tension on bullets since the case neck thickness may vary among cases,

A thicker neck does have potential for more tension. It's more brass to spring back against bullet bearing.
But what does it matter with bushing sizing, -vs- any other neck sizing?

 

[243winxb]

Centering neck/bullet on chambering. Unturned.

The expander will not contact the unsized part of the neck, that the bushing doesnt reach.

This unsized area will fully expand to the chamber. If unturned & of varying wall thickness, the bullet may be chambered off center of the bore.

My Redding type S fl bushing die stops short of the shoulder by maybe 1/8", so i neck turn & size about 1/2 of the neck. 243 Win cartridge.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I normally neck-turn cases and use bushing dies, but I'm asking for a friend who'd like to avoid neck turning. As I understand it, sizing with a bushing die makes the most sense when you first turn the necks. This allows you to get consistent neck tension upon seating a bullet. However, does it make sense to use a bushing die (either a neck-only die or a FL die) on cases that have not first been neck-turned? On the face of it, this would seem to cause inconsistent neck tension on bullets since the case neck thickness may vary among cases, or would any neck-thickness variation be too trivial to matter (assuming that the same brand and lot of cases is used)? What do you all think about this?

We can split hairs pretty fine these days but from a short range br perspective, from one of a few that have gone no turn necks in the short range br game...just do it. If it makes you feel better, drop down a bushing size but this is not a big deal on target. If it was, I'd be turning case necks tonight. In my case, since 2019, I've got a couple or so National championship aggs to support no turn necks. But hey...if you think it matters, it does...so turn away. There are probably far more long range shooters using no turn chambers than there are in short range...but we're getting there. Lol!

 

[South Pender]

Yes. Some give you the option of an expander or a decapping pin retainer that does not expand. To make this more interesting, Redding dies work with the Whidden expander assemblies and Whidden offers sets of expander balls in different diameters for a caliber. Expander balls seem to always gotten a bad rap, but the real problem has been that one piece dies' neck IDs are so small that the axial force on the case, as they are expanded causes the brass in the shoulder to yield slightly,and unevenly, resulting in cocked necks. If you pair an expander ball with a bushing so that you can hardly feel the expander working on the sized neck, this does not take place. I have done it.

That's really helpful. I've done a little Googling now and see that the Redding Type S die would seem to be a good choice for my friend. He doesn't want to get too deep into the weeds re handloading, and the Redding die looks about right.

 

[BoydAllen]

That's really helpful. I've done a little Googling now and see that the Redding Type S die would seem to be a good choice for my friend. He doesn't want to get too deep into the weeds re handloading, and the Redding die looks about right.

Yes, that is a good choice. He will also need a bushing or two.

 

[Bc'z]

That's really helpful. I've done a little Googling now and see that the Redding Type S die would seem to be a good choice for my friend. He doesn't want to get too deep into the weeds re handloading, and the Redding die looks about right.

Have him get the set with competition seater, it's definitely worth the extra $$
Mentoring a buddy of mine this year I made sure he got Redding dies for his cartridges.

 

[piie]

When you use good brass, the effect of neck turning/not neck turning becomes less.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Have him get the set with competition seater, it's definitely worth the extra $$
Mentoring a buddy of mine this year I made sure he got Redding dies for his cartridges.

I like them too but some do not. I've never found a major flaw in them. I did Crack a seater stem several years ago, using heavy neck tension and very compressed loads. That was my fault. I think it may say so somewhere in the instructions.

 

[Tesoro]

I think that one should consider skimming, and not true neck turning, when using certain brass with bushings. Example: I am using Peterson for first time in my new 6xc. The neck ID's are not consistent out of the box and I like to chamfer/de-burr when all the holes are same size and roundness, so step one is to use an expander mandrel. The expander also sets the OD to where I only have to squeeze neck down 2.5 thou for a 2 thou tension. 2 step process easy peasey..NOT!

As the new necks are not all even in ID the mandrel slides in smooth on some and with more force on others. The smaller holes create what I call 'blunderbussing' on the neck lip that you can only see with a loupe, or feel with your fingernail. The 2 out of 5 which will have this then become the 2 that have runout past my target 1- 1.5 thou. A de-burring tool won't remove the lip.

Solution is to skim so you just cut off the flare, and also shave off any humps down to the shoulder so you wind up with a nice even straight wall neck to slide into the bushing. By doing this with this brass I go from original neck thickness spread of 7/10th of a thou to max 3/10th of a thou. Not true turning but enough to even things up without thinning the neck wall. Pictures below show first one after mandrel where you can see the flare and second after skimming.

 

[JFrank]

For my no turn 6 br, I used a .241 mandrel on virgin brass, load and shoot. For sizing I used a Harrell’s B-1 fl bushing die with no expander ball system and never do I recall having bullet hold issues ~ unless I tried to run ultra light hold.

 

[TaperPin]

Since this is not a competition gun, if your friend would be happy with x/x moa groups and it shoots that without turned necks there’s no benefit fixing it further if it’s not broken.

Not that I think this is a good idea, but it made me chuckle, when some hunters were using standard full length dies and just removing the expander ball all together. It shot fine for their expectations and eliminated the hassle of pulling the ball through the necks. Just wrong, but worked for their bullets, cases and dies.

 

[Tesoro]

For my no turn 6 br, I used a .241 mandrel on virgin brass, load and shoot. For sizing I used a Harrell’s B-1 fl bushing die with no expander ball system and never do I recall having bullet hold issues ~ unless I tried to run ultra light hold.

Me too. No need to mess with the Lapua brass. Neck is thinner than the Peterson and dosent flair with my 2415 mandrel. Necks dia’s are also more even.