Neck Sizing and Bushings

[savageshooter86]

Ok I have turned my necks on my Lapua cases and have got my Whidden Bushing FL sizing die. I came across G Salazar thread on neck tension and bushing.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/reloading-neck-tension.html


So I am wandering if I need to do this as my fired cases measure 344(loaded case necks measure 336) and to get my desired neck tension I need a 334 bushing. That is 0.01 of sizing. He states if sizing necks down more than 0.005 then need to do the 2 step process.

Has anyone tested this or will it make any difference?

 

[gsg5pk]

I would recommend to go 2 steps as journal recommend for concentric.

First step with .339"
Then Nk Sizing to your desired size.


Should not go more than .005 per step

 

[savageshooter86]

so then this should also apply to regular FL sizing which over works the necks then? I know most FL dies unless honed, are going to be sizing the necks down way more than 005

If so then most people who don't have custom dies and factory chambers are losing some concentricity and possibly accuracy?

 

[spclark]

If so then most people who don't have custom dies and factory chambers are losing some concentricity and possibly accuracy?

Likely enough but then would they really notice?

Shooters who value repeatable accuracy recognize what it takes to load ammunition that performs reliably time after time. They know the value of the tools and components they select.

Otherwise there'd be no market for custom chambers and reloading tools.

 

[BoydAllen]

A good alternative for factory chambers, is to use a two step sizing process, first with a Lee collet die, and then with a body die. If you do a search, I am sure that you will find some discussion of this, and reports of good results. Personally, I don't think that I would have turned Lapua brass if it was to be shot in a chamber with the neck dimensions that you have described.

 

[savageshooter86]

Boyd I did this to get better neck tension uniformity and also to experiment with neck tension. Turned necks would allow for the bushing die to be used. That is the reason I turned the necks. I only turned about 0.0015 off the necks

I was a part of several of the Lee collet die threads and the body die but decided to go with a FL sizing die that had bushing. Feel more confident in the process. With the Lee die I never felt 100% using it. Just my experience with the LCD :-[

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that experiments like you mentioned are a good idea. Of course all that it takes to do the same thing with a collet die is a selection of mandrels of differing diameters. Sorry to hear that your experience with that kind of die was not a good one. What was the specific problem? BTW, any problem with sizing with a bushing in one step with the kind of clearance that you are running, will show up as runout, how is yours running at the ends of your necks? If there is no issue there, you don't have a problem (IMO).

 

[Phil3]

I tried Boyd's process of using a Lee collet die and Redding die on 223 cases. The Lee Collet works, but did find it took some practice to get good results. Per the instructions that come with the die, it takes a firmer push on the press handle. After switching from a Redding to a Forster FL die, I have better results, but the Lee Collet/Redding Body die combo may still do better. More testing needed.

Phil

 

[BoydAllen]

It is definitely not by the book, but I adjust my collet dies for the lightest possible toggle at the top of the ram stroke. Anything that you can feel at all with the press handle is enough. Just remember to keep it our secret.

 

[savageshooter86]

Boyd not any bad experience per se. I personally just never felt 100% confident it was consistent and that I was doing it right. But that was with the Lee press that had a lot of flex in it. Now I have a Forster CoAx press

I have not actually used my bushing die yet because I had 300 pieces of virgin brass and am going through them now. Not wanting to size any brass until they are all 1x fired and I get my busing and my Bench Source annealing machine ;D That way I can do everything at once and keep up with it all.

Not sure about concentricity on the necks now but I turned them and all were measuring very, very consistent and my seating on all my brass so far is within 0.0005". Which I had not had before. But not sure if this is the turned necks or the new Whidden seating die I have

 

[BoydAllen]

The collet die is so different, I can understand why you felt the way that you did. I had a bit of a learning curve myself. Glad to hear that your seating die gives such consistent results. I will be interested to read about your progress as you get past your first firing and do some sizing with that bushing die. Sounds like you are having fun.

 

[savageshooter86]

If I can finish the load development how it started I will be very happy. The load/rifle appear to be in tune and want to shoot according to my 600 yard target I shot the other day

 

[savageshooter86]

anyone care to share input on if the Redding neck die is any better than the Forster neck die?

 

[stubbicatt]

Groan.

I bought the Whidding die sets in 308 and in 6.5x47. These are really nice tools. I bought a combination of Redding and LE Wilson bushings for each. I bought 200 Lapua 6.5x47 brass, and determined to neck turn them a total of .001, or .0005" turning. As I looked at the new cases, the necks were apparently reshaped or dented a little bit in transit, so I resized using .288" bushings, snugged down all the way in the cavity by the decapping stem. Then run the cases over the 6.5mm expander from 21st Century, and neck turned with the excellent lathe neck turner. When all was done I took .0005" off the cases, or a total of .001", and they measure consistently just below .013" , maybe .0128", with a tube mic. --Very consistent by my read.

Nonetheless, all have a runout of .001 to .0015" as measured on the necks by the 21st Century concentricity gage.

The one dummy round I seated a bullet in and used to try to determine the distance to the lands measures about .0035" on the ogive. (I discount the runout on this one round with seated bullet due to the forces of being jammed into and removed from the chamber so many times).

I have not fired any of these cartridges yet, as I have no stock nor scope at this point. So I find myself hoping that things iron out on firing, and concentricity improves on fired cases.

In the experience of this group, will concentricity improve after firing?

 

[savageshooter86]

so I resized using .288" bushings

This could be hindering your results. Virgin brass should be FL sized, then expanded and then neck turned. Bushing neck dies don't size all of the necks 100% down.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/neck-turning-basics/
Read down and especially the BRASS PREPERATION section

Concentricity on fired cases should improve if your chamber is straight.

Sorry in my PM to you I didn't realize this brass had not been fired at all

 

[stubbicatt]

so I resized using .288" bushings

This could be hindering your results. Virgin brass should be FL sized, then expanded and then neck turned. Bushing neck dies don't size all of the necks 100% down.

I do not have a FL die for this caliber. I took a chance I suppose, but I reckoned it was FL sized at the factory, and my bushing only corrected some of the less than totally round necks in the batch. Then I introduced the expander mandrel prior to neck turning to assure uniform inside neck dimensions. The brass did clean up nicely with the neck turner.

Quoting from the G. Salazar article you reference, "Brass Preparation
Before we go any further, size your brass with a full-length non-bushing die and trim to uniform length. Both these tasks are VERY important. If the brass is new, run it over the expander and trim to uniform length. " Emphasis is mine.

I think I got it pretty close per this article, and the necks trimmed up very consistently, some leaving an area on the neck untouched. In any event, none is larger than .138" or thereabouts in thickness, thus giving me my .004" clearance I set out for.

I hope you are right that these necks will true up upon firing.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You two guys have a reading comprehension problem.

You should NEVER full length size virgin brass, just run an expander through the case mouths to remove any dings incurred in shipment. Salazar is quite clear about this. Here is the quote:

"Before we go any further, size your brass with a full-length non-bushing die and trim to uniform length. Both these tasks are VERY important. If the brass is new, run it over the expander and trim to uniform length."

Notice that statement about using an F/L non-bushing dies followed by a trimming operation. Then he makes a special qualifier statement "if the brass is new" he says to run it over the expander followed by a trimming operation. He does not say to F/L size the new brass, only run an expander through the virgin cases and then trim.

Resizing virgin brass is useless at best or detrimental to case life at worse.

 

[Nik]

I am still refining my reloads. Let me know if this make any sense:

New brass, I just full length no bushing resized with expander, chamfer, load and fire. Only trim to length after first firing. Subsequent brass are either FL bushing or NK bushing resized, trim to length, chamfer in and outside case mouth, dry lube, primed, charged, seat bullet and shoot. I found my virgin brass dimensonally uneven and if I trim them to length before first firing, subsequent fired brass will yield different case length, mostly shorter due to the fact that the shoulder and neck angles are now fully formed to the chamber.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I don't neck size because my match ammo needs to be consistent across all firing, so I full length size every time. For me, consistency is critical.

My match ammo starts with Lapua virgin brass. The only preparation I do to virgin brass is to run an expander mandrel through the mouth to make sure they are all round and at the same tension. I take measurements of the brass at that time. Then I prime, charge, seat bullet and go fire it.

After the first firing, I measure the now once-fired brass, note the fact that the shoulder has moved a bit compared to virgin state and then use my F/L S/B bushing die to bump the shoulder back about .001 to .002. Then it's clean, anneal, prime load and go.

For virgin Winchester brass, I use the expander mandrel, then a quick trim, chamfer, deburr and primer pocket uniforming along with flash hole chad removal. After the first firing, I treat it the same as the Lapua above.

I don't understand what you mean by "I found my virgin brass dimensonally uneven " what brand are you using?

 

[savageshooter86]

Denys I only used expander on my virgin brass. Then trimmed to length. Then neck turned. I miss-typed earlier, but the point I was trying to show was bushing style FL dies should not be used prior to neck turning.

I will also FL size brass after each firing. After I anneal each firing too.