Neck runout
- Thread starter HHI6818
- Start date
Is the bushing allowed to float in the die?
HH16818: .004' is a lot of runout after sizing with a neck bushing die. .0015' is my normal maximum with 6BR Lapua after reducing .002' with any of my bushings, any ctg. Cannot be the die or all the brass would have the same, or very close runout. You did not mention the ratio of 'good' to 'bad' runout results/ out of 20 cases, how many with excess ruout? Also what kind of loaded round runouts are you getting? I take my readings at the contact point on the bullet ogive where it has first contact with the leade. No matter what I do to prevent it, a few loaded rounds, Lapua brass) will always have at least some r/o, and those are marked,black magic marker) and kept for first round fouling, basic scope sight-ins, 100 yd maximum. .002' to .003' is about my 'maximum' r/o that I consider acceptable on the loaded round. I've been beating myself up for many years on the runout issue and have to write it off as sub-standard brass. For those who might claim the superiority qualities of factory ammo-- I've measured new out-of-the-box factory ammo that has up to .012' of loaded round runout. When I see that, I don't feel so bad about my .002' to .003'.
Dimwit Flathead
It's the Juggernaut, Bitch!
Are you using a Redding bushing? I've discovered that Wilson dies can give bad runout numbers if used with Redding bushings, that observation being confirmed by several other guys. Not sure about Redding, but I'd at least look into it.
Are you putting a little lube on the case neck? Have you deburred and chamfered? Are the cases neck turned correctly? All that stuff will make a difference.
Are you putting a little lube on the case neck? Have you deburred and chamfered? Are the cases neck turned correctly? All that stuff will make a difference.
GentleBen: Bought the RCBS about 6 years ago, and the Sinclair about 3. Like and use them both, frequently cross-checking the same ctg. using both setups. The V-blocks are starting to wear,grooves), on the RCBS: the non-moving ball bearings on the Sinclair are not. The depth-of-engagement on the Sinclair is a little on the shallow side, and a larger case, like a 308) will sometimes jump out of the bed created by the ball bearings-- probably more my fault than the design of the tool. I'd be hard pressed to say one is better than the other, but to me, they are very worthwhile.
Using a Redding Neck bushing die with Redding bushing. Brass is factory Lapua, no turn neck. I have the RCBS case master case gauge to check run out. I just went and checked 10 Lapua turned necks for another gun and the runout is .0005-.001. I'm using the same Redding bushing die for both.
HHI6818 said:
You're using the same die body for the turned-neck brass and the non-turned brass. The turned brass has minimal runout, and the non-turn brass is all over the place,up to .004). Now the question - are using the same bushing for the turned and non-turned? If not, maybe it's possible that the bushing you use for the no-turn brass is 'out of whack'? I've never heard of a bushing,any brand) being drilled off-center, or drilled in an 'oval' shape, but that may be the case. Sounds like it anyway... Hopefully some guys with more experience chime in
Frank, thanks for the tips, I think I will order the RCBS Case Master first because of its versatility -- plus Sinclair is out stock of their version right now.
Two quick questions, please:
1. Is the dial indicator supplied with the RCBS good enough to measure what we need to measure as 6mmBR shooters, or should I order a better dial such as the Smith&Wesson,$25) which has a range down to 0.0001 to a quarter-inch, compared to the RCBS dial which has a range of only 0.001 to a quarter-inch.
2. When prepping new Lapua brass, would it hurt/help neck concentricity if I first ran it through a Redding Type-S neck bushing die to guarantee the openings are rounded out. Or, should I spring for a Sinclair die with expander mandrel.,Subsequent sizing is to be done with a Harrell's FL die.)
Two quick questions, please:
1. Is the dial indicator supplied with the RCBS good enough to measure what we need to measure as 6mmBR shooters, or should I order a better dial such as the Smith&Wesson,$25) which has a range down to 0.0001 to a quarter-inch, compared to the RCBS dial which has a range of only 0.001 to a quarter-inch.
2. When prepping new Lapua brass, would it hurt/help neck concentricity if I first ran it through a Redding Type-S neck bushing die to guarantee the openings are rounded out. Or, should I spring for a Sinclair die with expander mandrel.,Subsequent sizing is to be done with a Harrell's FL die.)
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Ben,
Do you really think a indicator that sells for $25,after mark-up and all that jazz) is really going to be able to reliably measure to a tenth,ten-thousandth)? Most people tend to view regular 0.001' dial indicators in that price range as more or less disposable, because they may work... or they may not.
There are other options I'd consider before the RCBS unit... the NECO gauge for starters, and the H&H for a second.
YMMV,
Monte
Do you really think a indicator that sells for $25,after mark-up and all that jazz) is really going to be able to reliably measure to a tenth,ten-thousandth)? Most people tend to view regular 0.001' dial indicators in that price range as more or less disposable, because they may work... or they may not.
There are other options I'd consider before the RCBS unit... the NECO gauge for starters, and the H&H for a second.
YMMV,
Monte
Moderator
Administrator
For short cases such as the 6mmBR, PPC,220 Russian), and Grendel, you will probably be disappointed with the RCBS Case-master. I have one and found that while it is useful for larger cases like the 30-06 it tends to have enough wobble with short cases that it is hard to get reliable,and repeatable) run-out measurements off the necks or seated bullets.
The NECO instrument measures run-out; it WILL NOT correct anything. It is for the reloader to find the defect in the seating process and correct it. You do not need the NECO and the other instrument. The NECO is equipped with a GEM brand run-out indicator in lieu of a dial indicator.GentleBen said:
Moderator: With all due respect, I'm not seeing any signs of wobble when using the RCBS Casemaster. I'm able to take a loaded round with indicated runout of .005', for example), as shown on the RCBS, place that same round on the Sinclair tool, and it will also indicate .005' of runout. Cartridges that show zero runout on the RCBS will indicate zero on the Sinclair. 22ppc, 6ppc, 222, 22BR, 6BR, 308: all results shown on either tool, can be duplicated on the other.
first check a fired case right out of the chamber if run out is present,your chamber is out of round.the other thing would be the gage you are using is bad.now if it shows the case has a near zero reading,your sizing die is junk.i can not get a redding die to give me a zero reading after sizing.you have to live with it or get an other die,i've sent them back the sent me other dies,i just gave up on them.........jim
I'm using the same Redding S neck bushing die to resize two different 6mm BR guns. Brass is Lapua for both.
Fist gun is a tight necked XP 100 and a resized case has .0005 inch run out. The second gun is a Encore no turn neck and a fired case has .0005-.001 run out and after resizing it has .0005-.004 inch run out. Talked to a buddy toady and I'm going to borrow his .267 & .268 bushing and try it. Will let you know whats happens with his bushing.
Thx for all of the suggestions.
Fist gun is a tight necked XP 100 and a resized case has .0005 inch run out. The second gun is a Encore no turn neck and a fired case has .0005-.001 run out and after resizing it has .0005-.004 inch run out. Talked to a buddy toady and I'm going to borrow his .267 & .268 bushing and try it. Will let you know whats happens with his bushing.
Thx for all of the suggestions.
HHI6818 said:
HHI6818:
Didn't see this suggestion yet, but you may want to try it. It's cheap too!
Put an o-ring between the die nut and the top of the press. This allows the die to 'auto-align',if you want to call it that) if it naturally sits crooked in the press. The slop in the threads between the die and the press is usually enough to get the die perfectly in line with the center of the ram/case holder. It's definitely worth a shot, like I said, it's a cheap fix!
Of course, see what swapping the bushings does first... you may not need to go any further...
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.