Neck Runout on New Lapua Brass

[lee1000]

Hello, so I'm planning on competing in my first 600yd FTR match on the 20th in OKC and am prepping new brass for it, from what I've read new Lapua brass is fine for competition, especially for my experience level.

Rifle: stock Savage FTR in 308

My current and 1st set of Lapua brass has 9 reloads on it so I'm thinking it would be best to use new brass, I haven't gotten into annealing or neck turning yet. I don't have a dedicated expander mandrel unfortunately. There are none in stock locally. I would love to shoot them and check things out but I'm almost out of Sierra 155gr Palmas.

Run out on fired rounds pre and post neck sizing is less than 1mil. Bullet runout is generally around 4 mils (0.004).

I've checked runout on the new brass and it has been as high as 3 mils (0.003") and i can't seem to iron it out. Bullet runout stays around 5 mils.

The things I tried so far are as follows:
-Neck sizing using a Lee Collet Die with a stock mandrel
-Body sizing using a Redding body die
-Expanding the case mouth using a polished and lubed Lee Expander button from a full length sizing die
-The high spot on the brass never changes even after rotating the case in the shell holder.
-Case neck thickness varies up to 1 mil, there seems to be no correlation between the thickness and the high runout location.

My plan right now is to go buy a Hornady match grade full length resizing die and try that.

Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for the typical good advice I get from this site.

 

[mikecr]

I don't know that runout will make any difference to your results. I think it depends on chamber clearances myself.
The ONLY way to straighten brass is to fire it in your best die(your chamber). FL sizing will only serve to increase runout. In fact, ANY sizing of thickness variance will increase runout.
If it were me, I'd use the stable brass on-hand anyway.

 

[Comrade Terry]

If it were me, I'd use the stable brass on-hand anyway.

+1

 

[Snuggie]

Start annealing, turn those necks, and get that mandrel. You will see results! Good shooting!

 

[timeout]

9 reloads on your brass is not a reason to give up on it if you have been using a die that doesn't over work it, anneal the necks and are not shooting excessively high pressure loads. Otherwise until you can get an expander mandrel, load up the new brass and go shoot the match. You will be fine. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[lee1000]

Good replies by all, thank you

 

[Shynloco]

.......

Run out on fired rounds pre and post neck sizing is less than 1mil. Bullet runout is generally around 4 mils (0.004).

I've checked runout on the new brass and it has been as high as 3 mils (0.003") and i can't seem to iron it out. Bullet runout stays around 5 mils.........

My plan right now is to go buy a Hornady match grade full length resizing die and try that....

Any other ideas?

lee1000,
May I ask what measuring tool are you using to determine RUNOUT? They aren't all the same and some vary the runout greatly and not accurately. Personally, if I were competing, I would not be pleased with a .005 runout...more like a .002-.003 max, is appropriate. As a general rule, your casings coming out of a chamber after firing, have the best runout. It's when we resize them that they get a little squirrelly. To that end and no offense to Hornady dies, but if you compete (and serious about it), get a die such as a Harrel or Widden that is more precisely made than a general production die. And provide them with three fired casings so it'll more closely match the chamber in your rifle. Yes they are more expensive. But then when you compete, you want the best possible and most consistent FL resizing available.

Alex

 

[22BRGUY]

Hello, so I'm planning on competing in my first 600yd FTR match on the 20th in OKC and am prepping new brass for it, from what I've read new Lapua brass is fine for competition, especially for my experience level.

Rifle: stock Savage FTR in 308

My current and 1st set of Lapua brass has 9 reloads on it so I'm thinking it would be best to use new brass, I haven't gotten into annealing or neck turning yet. I don't have a dedicated expander mandrel unfortunately. There are none in stock locally. I would love to shoot them and check things out but I'm almost out of Sierra 155gr Palmas.

Run out on fired rounds pre and post neck sizing is less than 1mil. Bullet runout is generally around 4 mils (0.004).

I've checked runout on the new brass and it has been as high as 3 mils (0.003") and i can't seem to iron it out. Bullet runout stays around 5 mils.

The things I tried so far are as follows:
-Neck sizing using a Lee Collet Die with a stock mandrel
-Body sizing using a Redding body die
-Expanding the case mouth using a polished and lubed Lee Expander button from a full length sizing die
-The high spot on the brass never changes even after rotating the case in the shell holder.
-Case neck thickness varies up to 1 mil, there seems to be no correlation between the thickness and the high runout location.

My plan right now is to go buy a Hornady match grade full length resizing die and try that.

Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for the typical good advice I get from this site.

What tool/die are you using in seating your bullets?

 

[lee1000]

lee1000,
May I ask what measuring tool are you using to determine RUNOUT? They aren't all the same and some vary the runout greatly and not accurately. Personally, if I were competing, I would not be pleased with a .005 runout...more like a .002-.003 max, is appropriate. As a general rule, your casings coming out of a chamber after firing, have the best runout. It's when we resize them that they get a little squirrelly. To that end and no offense to Hornady dies, but if you compete (and serious about it), get a die such as a Harrel or Widden that is more precisely made than a general production die. And provide them with three fired casings so it'll more closely match the chamber in your rifle. Yes they are more expensive. But then when you compete, you want the best possible and most consistent FL resizing available.

Alex

I'm using a miniature v-block and mag base dial indicator. It's very repeatable, it may not be the most reloader centric but the data I get is good. Is this an acceptable tool?

 

[lee1000]

What tool/die are you using in seating your bullets?

I'm using a Lee Classic Cast Breachlock press with a very loosely floated Forster micrometer seater die. The seater stem was custom ground for Sierra 155gr Palmas by Forster, this has seamed to help with runout as now reliably get 4 mils (was upwards of 7 before) with my 9 times reloaded cases. My next big purchase is going to be a 21st Century lathe for neck turning and then Annealeez machine. Im open to suggestions though.

 

[22BRGUY]

I'm using a Lee Classic Cast Breachlock press with a very loosely floated Forster micrometer seater die. The seater stem was custom ground for Sierra 155gr Palmas by Forster, this has seamed to help with runout as now reliably get 4 mils (was upwards of 7 before) with my 9 times reloaded cases. My next big purchase is going to be a 21st Century lathe for neck turning and then Annealeez machine. Im open to suggestions though.

How are you chamfering the case mouths of your brass? I double chamfer with a regular chamfer tool and then us a VLD chamfer tool which gives a double angle chamfer with sharp edges that can cause run out and cut into the bullet jacket upon seating. I then push the case mouth firmly into a pad of 0000 steel wool and rotate it back and forth several times to smooth out those sharp edges. It helps a lot in reducing run out and improving smooth seating.
I've never made straighter necks than with a Lee collet die although some have come very close.
All expander buttons have been poison to my reloading process so I haven't used them for many years.
I think your idea of getting a 21st Century neck turning tool is a really good one and it should come with both a turning arbor and an expander tool.
Best Wishes

 

[amlevin]

Even Lapua brass has thickness variations in the neck material. Since you neck size with the Lee Collet Die, the inside of the neck is most likely concentric to the rest of the case and your variation is merely a function of a thick point on the neck. I've pretty much eliminated this by skim cutting the necks of my Lapua brass. The brass gets on firing and I then measure the brass first using a Sinclair Neck Thickness Gauge and then turn the case with the least variation in thickness. This gives me a setting for turning all the remaining brass in that batch. End result, is a batch of brass (100 pcs) that has uniform neck thickness and when neck sizing with a collet die is as straight as it gets, inside and out on the necks.

 

[lee1000]

How are you chamfering the case mouths of your brass? I double chamfer with a regular chamfer tool and then us a VLD chamfer tool which gives a double angle chamfer with sharp edges that can cause run out and cut into the bullet jacket upon seating. I then push the case mouth firmly into a pad of 0000 steel wool and rotate it back and forth several times to smooth out those sharp edges. It helps a lot in reducing run out and improving smooth seating.
I've never made straighter necks than with a Lee collet die although some have come very close.
All expander buttons have been poison to my reloading process so I haven't used them for many years.
I think your idea of getting a 21st Century neck turning tool is a really good one and it should come with both a turning arbor and an expander tool.
Best Wishes

I'm using a Lyman hand chamber and deburring tool, I'm pretty sure it has the VLD angle.

 

[Shynloco]

I'm using a Lee Classic Cast Breachlock press with a very loosely floated Forster micrometer seater die. The seater stem was custom ground for Sierra 155gr Palmas by Forster, this has seamed to help with runout as now reliably get 4 mils (was upwards of 7 before) with my 9 times reloaded cases. My next big purchase is going to be a 21st Century lathe for neck turning and then Annealeez machine. Im open to suggestions though.

Good idea to buy the 21st Century lathe for neck turning and then the Annealeez of you aren't doing a large quantity of brass. But might I suggest you also consider and buy an inside neck reamer. You can either get sized reamers (Sinclair) or order a custom one to create a specific neck thickness, assuming you also clean up the outside of the neck. I was quite surprised recently when I decided to do the aforementioned using Lapua brass on my 6.5BR where prior to reaming the insides of the necks, (but had cleaned up the outside of the necks after fireforming - about 5 firings before) my brass was almost all in the .002 range. Now after reaming the inside necks, all my brass was .001-.002 in runout using a 21St Century Concentricity Gauge. I really can't say that would make a different in F/TR competition or not, as a good friend and F/TR shooter (who wins serious competitions) always tells me I overdo everything which is typical of Benchrest shooters. But I also respond by telling him if I had a gun that shoots like his, I'd give it away (lol).

Alex

 

[Zero333]

I hate hornady dies !

 

[bozo699]

I hate hornady dies !

Hate is a very strong word but there are definitely better dies out there!....
Wayne.

 

[lee1000]

I ended up shooting a 190 4x my last relay, I'll take that.

 

[barefooter56]

Hello, so I'm planning on competing in my first 600yd FTR match on the 20th in OKC and am prepping new brass for it, from what I've read new Lapua brass is fine for competition, especially for my experience level.

Rifle: stock Savage FTR in 308

My current and 1st set of Lapua brass has 9 reloads on it so I'm thinking it would be best to use new brass, I haven't gotten into annealing or neck turning yet. I don't have a dedicated expander mandrel unfortunately. There are none in stock locally. I would love to shoot them and check things out but I'm almost out of Sierra 155gr Palmas.

Run out on fired rounds pre and post neck sizing is less than 1mil. Bullet runout is generally around 4 mils (0.004).

I've checked runout on the new brass and it has been as high as 3 mils (0.003") and i can't seem to iron it out. Bullet runout stays around 5 mils.

The things I tried so far are as follows:
-Neck sizing using a Lee Collet Die with a stock mandrel
-Body sizing using a Redding body die
-Expanding the case mouth using a polished and lubed Lee Expander button from a full length sizing die
-The high spot on the brass never changes even after rotating the case in the shell holder.
-Case neck thickness varies up to 1 mil, there seems to be no correlation between the thickness and the high runout location.

My plan right now is to go buy a Hornady match grade full length resizing die and try that.

Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for the typical good advice I get from this site.

Lee1000,
Measuring run-out on new brass can lead to alcoholism. The last step in the formation of a brass cartridge case is when it is fired in your chamber . Until that point its simply a hammered brass vessel that is made to fit and chamber on any .308 chamber ( there can be exceptions like tight neck chambers ETC) ever made and no die will ever "straighten" it out. Think of the cartridge case as a toothpaste tube that has had some tooth paste removed. When you squeeze the bottom (fire the cartridge case in your chamber) it expands and straightens.
PS- benchrest shooters are constantly amazed at how accurate their rifles are when "blowing out" the 220 Russan brass to 6PPC.

 

[geo.ulrich]

I'm using a miniature v-block and mag base dial indicator. It's very repeatable, it may not be the most reloader centric but the data I get is good. Is this an acceptable tool?

is the rim off the vee block if not you are not getting good readings

 

[dmoran]

I don't know that runout will make any difference to your results. I think it depends on chamber clearances myself.
The ONLY way to straighten brass is to fire it in your best die(your chamber). FL sizing will only serve to increase runout. In fact, ANY sizing of thickness variance will increase runout.
If it were me, I'd use the stable brass on-hand anyway.

Mike
You must have some crap-o-la dies.... lol
I have F/L dies that won't even induce .0005" run-out into a case (when set-up and used right of course).
That also increase volume consistency, after being sized !.!.!

As precise as you seem to demand your reloading equipment to be (which I respect very much), it baffles me the struggles you have with full-size dies and/or there setup.
Donovan