Neck Bushing FL Die Question

[savageshooter86]

Anyone care to share thoughts on if a FL die with bushing would cause less concentric brass vs a FL die?

Reason is I am trying to do some testing and seems my Whidden FL bushing die with a 336 bushing and a 3085 expander ball is giving me 2-3 thous runout on the brass. His standard FL die is giving me 1.5 or less runout.

My chamber is a 342 neck(Savage FTR 308 win) and my loaded rounds measure 336. FL die sizes to 327 then expander pulls back out to 335. With the bushing die and 336 bushing, it sizes to 3345 then the expander pulls out to 335. Brass is 4x fired Lapua and was annealed after the 3rd firing. Both dies are set up to bump shoulders back 2 thous.

Looking for info from the experts on this

 

[Immike]

Wow you are moving the brass alot. Keep annealing.

 

[BoydAllen]

The first thing that I would do is to size a case with no bushing. I should be about as straight as fired. Assuming that was OK, I would use a ball mic to measure the ID to OD dimension of the bushing, about 90 degrees apart, all the way around. I would also make sure that the bushing retaining cap did not have the bushing pinned so that it can not rattle when you shake the die. It needs room to move. Sometimes when the difference between fired and sized neck diameters is too great, bushing dies will not give results that are as good as a body die (yours without the bushing), in combination with a collet die. (Use the collet first.) Another approach would be to size twice, starting with a larger bushing.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Bushing dies give more neck run out because the bushing floats. I don't know if there is any accuracy to be found there though. Most in competition are use bushing dies.

 

[stool]

SOME PEOPLE AND THEIR CHILDREN
do not use an expander ball....PERIOD..IT IS MOST LIKELY PULLING THE NECKS OFF CENTER...

the whole idea of a busing die is to allow you to size as desired...just the right tension.

 

[lawrence97]

Why not use the bushing die without the expander?
I have a set of whidden fl bushing dies with the expander removed and my brass is 1.5 thousandths and under.

 

[savageshooter86]

Brass being moved alot= factory chamber

I tried without the expander ball and necks were not sizing consistent. Appears I would need half thous size bushing (337 sized necks to 336 and 336 bushing sized to 3345)

I have a standard FL die but was trying to set this die up and see how I like it. Wanting 335 neck to try soft seating (** I know some don't like that idea**)

Still not understanding how people get consistent results with bushing only.... My necks are all turned the same and same number of firings. Good die and TN bushings. Maybe one day I will discover the secret

Using Forster CoAx press and Whidden dies. Hornady 1 shot spray lube (make sure to shake well before use). Fired cases have near 0 runout


**went out and sized a piece of brass in the bushing die with nothing in the die(no bushing or expander ball) and had right at 1/2 thous runout. Put bushing and expander in had 2 thous runout. Tried another piece of brass with only the bushing in and it had 3.5 thous runout

The bushing is floating because I set it up so I could hear it rattle and it is sizing about 80% of the neck

 

[lawrence97]

I also run a coax press. If you are sizing down that much you may be better of with a lee collet die or try a bushing that is 1-2 thousandths under fired dimension. I use redding wax and I make sure the die is cleaned for every batch of 100

 

[Webster]

Why would you want to use a expander ball with a washer die? The fired case should be as straight as the chamber is machined. With an expander ball the case is only held by the case head then the ball is jerked thru the neck. Why expand then reduce with the washer. You are only work hardening the brass unnecessarily.

 

[savageshooter86]

Re read original post. My FL die sizes from 342 down to 327, then expander opens it up to 335.

The bushing style die I am going from 342 to 3345, then expander opens up to 335. This works brass less and I barely feel the expander touch the necks. Both dies are minimally bumping the shoulder (2 thous)

I only tried the expander because necks with the bushing only were not sizing to what I was wanting (337 sized to 336. And my 336 sized to 3345)

Necks are turned uniform to about 01425. Same number of firings

**So it appears annealing is how y'all are only using a bushing and getting same results?

 

[stool]

as long as you are PULLING the expander ball thru the brass you are most likely pulling off center and working the brass.
buy steel sizer bushings, and hone out to get the size you want "need"

have you proven the bushed sizing not to your number does not work on the target?
wanting a certain number and NEEDING a certain number are two way different things.

Re read original post. My FL die sizes from 342 down to 327, then expander opens it up to 335.

The bushing style die I am going from 342 to 3345, then expander opens up to 335. This works brass less and I barely feel the expander touch the necks. Both dies are minimally bumping the shoulder (2 thous)

I only tried the expander because necks with the bushing only were not sizing to what I was wanting (337 sized to 336. And my 336 sized to 3345)

Necks are turned uniform to about 01425. Same number of firings

**So it appears annealing is how y'all are only using a bushing and getting same results?

 

[LHSmith]

Why would you want to use a expander ball with a washer die? The fired case should be as straight as the chamber is machined. With an expander ball the case is only held by the case head then the ball is jerked thru the neck. Why expand then reduce with the washer. You are only work hardening the brass unnecessarily.

Why confuse people by calling a "bushing" die a "washer" die. It looks nothing like a washer, it fits the mechanical engineering description of a bushing. Wilson, Redding, RCBS, and Forster, ALL refer to them as BUSHINGS. It is going to confuse some because there are indeed shims (for both in-line seater and 7/8-14 threaded dies) commonly used, and they do look similar to washers.

 

[chuckbuster243]

Have you run a .335 bushing? No expander? If your necks are turned and uniform you surely dont want an expander. Just try a few bushings until you get the diameter you want. What does a loaded round mic? Matt

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO the whole expander pulls neck off center is a case of mistaken diagnosis. I have played with this quite a bit, and am of the opinion that, yes, when a one piece die's neck portion is too small, and as a result an expander has too much work to do, that the axial pull on the case causes a slight asymmetrical yielding of the shoulder, which cocks the neck. I have a one piece 6PPC die, made by Hornady. Cases come out of it with less than .001 runout, and the expander does about .0005 worth of expanding, which probably means that the neck is .001 smaller in ID before expanding. I say this because brass has some spring back. On the other hand, I have a Redding one piece FL die that sizes necks so much that there is a lot of pull on the expander, and try as I might, that results in a lot more runout than I like, so I size without the expander ball, and do my expanding with a Sinclair die and mandrel that were intended to be used for case prep prior to turning necks, Doing it that way is much better. Since then, I have picked up body and collet dies for the caliber, and expect even better results them in sequence. The .22-250 work is with unturned necks, for a factory varmint rifle, that gives a good account of itself.

 

[savageshooter86]

Loaded rounds Mic just barely over 336( IIRC 3363)

I am wanting 335 because I am trying to soft seat using 1 thous bullet pull. Guess I could try 1.5 thous

A 335 bushing to me would size to 3335 our 334 based on what my 337 and 336 sized the necks to.

 

[jb27]

Sometimes when the difference between fired and sized neck diameters is too great, bushing dies will not give results that are as good as a body die (yours without the bushing), in combination with a collet die. (Use the collet first.)

After reading Boyd mention this last winter, I bought collet and body dies for my .223 and did some experimenting. I found what he's saying to be spot on. I was getting much more concentric ammo using this method compared to a regular full length sizing die as well as a bushing die. I can't wait for Lee to get back to taking on custom work to get a collet die made for my 6BR.

You mention that you want to get a specific neck size, you could always purchase a collet die and a mandrel that is slightly larger than your desired size and hone it to the size you want.

 

[savageshooter86]

Trying to keep this from turning into a FL vs neck sizing thread.

I had a Collet die and could not get it set up to work right on my CoAx press. I tried and tried. So got rid of it

 

[BaconFat]

.... I only tried the expander because necks with the bushing only were not sizing to what I was wanting (337 sized to 336. And my 336 sized to 3345)

I shoot the same rifle/caliber as you do. I use a Forster neck die and bushing. My necks are always end up being .001 to .0015 larger in diameter than the neck bushings from .339 to .336. I haven't measured the interior diameter of the dies, but I always assumed the difference was just spring-back. With my necks turned to .014 my last die is a .334 which leaves me with a neck diameter of .3345.

 

[savageshooter86]

How is runout on your brass?

Not sure why my brass is doing that. Not work hardened and has same number of firings on them

 

[spclark]

Looking for info from the experts on this

What's the runout on a fired & cleaned case before any sizing operations are attempted?

I'm no fan of expander balls myself, preferring to let the (floating) bushings in my F/L dies size necks to my liking. If I need to, an expander mandrel is used prior to neck sizing, typically only prior to neck turning.

Do you allow your sizing die(s) to 'float' in your press, by way of an o-ring positioned underneath the lock ring? I found this practice cut run-out by 50 - 75% on my Palma brass years ago.