A little info please, setting my my first FL bushing die (Whidden)

[TerryH]

is it safe to assume you have a chamber cut small for a turned neck?

@timeout is right. It's just a very light cut to perfectly uniform the thickness. Most of them measured right at .014 and they were all turned to .0135.

Sheesh. Edit to correct large typo blunder.

 

[timeout]

@timeout is right. It's just a very light cut to perfectly uniform the thickness. Most of them measured right at .014 and they were all turned to .135.

I think that you forgot a zero

 

[TerryH]

I think that you forgot a zero

Oh gosh. Thanks. Editing. Reminder to self, Proof read before hitting enter. Proof read before hitting enter. Proof read before hitting enter. One day I'll get that.

 

[B_Thomas]

I use the expander button with the bushing in my Whidden bushing dies.I select a bushing that slightly sizes neck of case down below the desired diameter. Then, as the expander passes back through the neck, it sets proper neck size and pushes any iregularities back to the outside.

The bad name expanders balls/buttons get are IMO from poor designs where the neck is formed down too much and the expander button is positioned that when it is pulled back through the neck the main body of the case is too far out of the die and not supported.This can cause the neck to be pulled out of round....causing run out

By adjusting the expander button on the Whidden die high enough where the main body of the case is being held tightly in the die, at the same time the expander passes through the neck the run out is greatly reduced. Using proper lube on the inside of the necks also reduces the necks from being pulled out of round to the main body.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Do yall think skimming that ball back thru lightly actually moves brass- or does it spring back to where it was? If you skim cut your necks to uniform them (every case needs this) does that alleviate the need for an expander ball moving brass back and forth from the outside to the inside?

 

[B_Thomas]

Do yall think skimming that ball back thru lightly actually moves brass- or does it spring back to where it was? If you skim cut your necks to uniform them (every case needs this) does that alleviate the need for an expander ball moving brass back and forth from the outside to the inside?

I think the amount of spring back is dependant on the state of the material. Was the neck annealed or not, plus the thickness of the neck wall. This has a small affect on the selection of the expander button or mandrel that sets the final relaxed neck diameter.

John Whidden saw a need to produce expanders in .001" larger and smaller sets. This much like the need for various mandrel diameters needed when setting final neck size with a mandrel die.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

+1

Get rid of the expander ball, that the first thing I do when I buy a new die.

Judging from the bullets you're using this is for an F-TR rifle. So precision and accuracy are major objectives. Here is a cut and paste from another posting that you need to contemplate and digest. Neck turning and annealing are necessary to control neck tension.


Some of us know that, of the 3 components of the Holy Trinity of precision ammo (powder, seating depth and neck tension), neck tension is the most difficult to control.


I know that everyone likes to control neck tension with bushings but to me that doesn't seem like a very good way. From my way of thinking bushings transfer any variance in neck thickness to the inside of the neck where they have a direct impact on neck tension. That is not a good thing, because no matter how careful you are turning necks there will be variances, and those variances will impact neck tension.


I believe that the outside of the neck has minimal importance, as long as there is a minimum .003 neck clearance for bullet release. The only important thing is how thick the necks are because that has an influence on spring-back. IMO the part of the neck everyone should be focusing on is the inside of the neck, or more appropriately inside diameter. The inside diameter is what influences neck tension, if one can transfer neck wall variances to the outside of the case it is that much better.


So the question is: How do we control neck tension from the inside of the neck? What if instead of honing die necks (an irreversible and often problematic process because dies are hardened, not to mention that you have to be twice as accurate with a die then with a mandrel, an impossible task for most small machine shops). What if we were to use a mandrel to expand the necks to provide the desired neck tension? What would a mandrel do?


Well, ... a mandrel would control the inside diameter of a case neck much more precisely than any bushing ever can. It could also transfer neck thickness variances to the outside of the neck where it doesn't interfere with neck tension and bullet release. That's good isn't it?


I have been using mandrels for thousands of cases. The problem is that just when I have a mandrel that gives ideal neck tension (down to .0001 precision) it starts to wear, and after a couple of thousand cases it is done. Making another mandrel to .0001 precision is very difficult/not possible for most machine shops and grinding shops. So I set out to look for a solution. I eventually focused on the Hornady bullet puller collet, because that's what I had. I started using the bullet puller to hold pin gages to expand the necks to match the turner mandrel.


However, the bullet puller did not hold the pin gages as co-axially straight as I wanted, so I approached Kenny Porter, who is master machinist for all kinds of things including parts for pacemakers (can you think of anything more critical?). I told him I wanted him to make a die for me that would hold a pin gage, actually a range of pin gages ie .305, .306, .307, .308 and .309. Once I showed him what I had in mind he made a leap to a collet that is ideally suited for what I wanted. The collet holds the cutting bit for a CNC machine. It has real holding power.


Pin gages are small tubes 2" long and can be bought for a few dollars and they are available in dimensions as exact as .0001 (+/- .00002). They generally have a 60 to 62 Rockwell hardness, like tool steel. They are ideal for this purpose, all you have to do is bevel the tip.


Now, when I need a new mandrel I buy a Vermont Gage pin gauge, chuck it in my drill and move it against a grinding stone until I get the desired point. If you’re looking for +/- .0002 precision they are round $3 each. If you really want to get precise and have a mandrel to .0001 (+/- .00002) precision then the price jumps to around $18 and you’ll have to order directly from Vermont Gage. For $18 you get a mandrel and a certificate of accuracy and the name of the guy that inspected and when.


Here’ the mandrel die that Kenny Porter ( kennethp@portersprecisionproducts.com ) made for me.

View attachment 1034884
View attachment 1034885

View attachment 1034886



This mandrel die makes all other mandrel die I have seen or bought look primitive.

Regards

Joe

I sent kenny an email i just been too busy to order one but im getting one

 

[B_Thomas]

+1

Get rid of the expander ball, that the first thing I do when I buy a new die.

So the question is: How do we control neck tension from the inside of the neck? What if instead of honing die necks (an irreversible and often problematic process because dies are hardened, not to mention that you have to be twice as accurate with a die then with a mandrel, an impossible task for most small machine shops). What if we were to use a mandrel to expand the necks to provide the desired neck tension? What would a mandrel do?

Well, ... a mandrel would control the inside diameter of a case neck much more precisely than any bushing ever can. It could also transfer neck thickness variances to the outside of the neck where it doesn't interfere with neck tension and bullet release. That's good isn't it?


Regards

Joe

I would think the Whidden die with the Expander button positioned where it passes through the neck with the case body being held in alignment in the die body does the same thing as a mandrel pin?

 

[B_Thomas]

You're not visualizing the whole process correctly. The expander ball is a lot like an egg going through a snake. It expands the neck for a slit second as it travels through the neck. Given the tension in front and behind the egg it is very difficult for the expander ball (widest part) to expand the full length of the beck uniformly.
My guess is that the results are anything but uniform.


Kindest regards,

Joe

I must be getting lucky, typically run-out is .0005" - .001"

thanks for the snake story!

 

[Linko]

Well Joe, you should write "The End" after your expander post. Surely that is the last chapter on that subject!

Thanks