Neck annealing

[TC260]

Quite honestly I've heard the term "flash annealing" but wasn't that familiar with the process. Doing a little reading up on it I don't see the connection to what we're doing. Getting the temps up that high and the kind of temperature control needed to execute it properly seems way outside the scope of reloading. Maybe with some further explanation of the process it would be clearer why we should be using that process instead what we're doing now.

The recovery annealing process we're doing now is widely known and used for treating 70/30 brass. It's the basis for the time/temperature limitations we're using. It's relatively easy to control. It works with the simple tools we're using. It retains the material properties we want. It seems to be working pretty as is.

 

[Joe Salt]

The Annealer I have has a timer on it so I can play, the brass if you go to far gets really soft. I ended up with dents on the mouth of the cases when they were eject from my Rem.721. Just had to cut back on the time, think I have right now they look like Lapua cases.

Joe Salt

 

[Webster]

Don't get hung p on the definition. Some people call flash annealing or rapid annealing. It's all the same thing. No change in methods needed. It just means heating to a high enough temperature that the annealing takes place in a very short time.

 

[TC260]

Fair enough. Flash annealing, flash lamp annealing, rapid thermal annealing, that's stuff's all in relation to manufacturing semi-conductors so it's a bit confusing to refer to what we're doing by the same terms. There's already enough confusion around brass annealing on reloading forums so call it what you want but I'll just refer to it by its conventional names recovery/partial/process annealing. It's not that obscure. There's plenty of information available about it, that way anybody reading this can look it up and learn more about it.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

To my mind, the ONLY reason to anneal your cases is to provide a consistent neck tension. Period. End of story. And I still think I'm trimming more because of annealing but I haven't proved it to myself yet and may never be able to.

+1. Thanks JCS

 

[Webster]

The term rapid annealing does not originate from the semi-conductor industry. They were commercially flame annealling cartridges at the factories 50 years before semi-conductors were invented..

 

[TC260]

Whoa hold up. We can agree to disagree but you can't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I come within a hundred miles of claiming where flame annealing originated. Furthermore, I never claimed where the term rapid annealing originated. I clearly stated that those are terms are used for processes related to manufacturing semi-conductors "so it's a bit confusing to refer to what we're doing by the same terms". Saying the terminology is a bit confusing isn't making claims about the origination of the words or processes.

You could be 100% correct that flash and rapid annealing are common terms in brass annealing. I just can't find any reference to it anywhere online. None of my materials books mention it. The one time I'd heard the term previously was in a materials class once but I didn't remember anything about it. That's what piqued my interest in the term now. You mentioned there's close to zero published engineering data on the process. Even if you don't like the terms, do a google search on recovery/partial/process annealing and you'll find tons of information on what we're doing. Look at a materials book and you'll find information on it. Do a google search on flash/rapid annealing and you'll get tons of information too it's just referring to something different. Agree or disagree I don't know what to say, I'm just looking at the information in front of me and reporting what search terms are needed to find the information we're looking for. Enjoyed the conversation. I'm out.

 

[Webster]

I was refering to a lack of info on rapid annealing small copper or brass parts and thin sheets of brass. This is the area we are interested in. No problem I think we all understand what's involved with cartridge cases. We don't need to drag in other similar processes. I have read and searched beyond reason on the subject. Bottom line if you are annealing cartridge cases just do what the other sucessfull people are doing. I don't know why someone ask the same questions about annealing every week on this website. Just search and read te posts. I hope I don't sound angry just trying to provide info.

 

[mikecr]

I have an old Lee pot for molding cast bullets. With the temperature turned as high as possible the lead was at 650F verified with a Harbor Freight infra red pyrometer. I held the cases just in front of the head with my fingers and immersed the neck and the shoulder only. It takes about 8-10 seconds for the case to get to hot to hold. This told me that I couldn't anneal in my lead pot.

With respect, 'to hot to hold' would vary with the cartridge case itself. Also, your lead pot should be able to reach considerably higher temps(enough to anneal, ~1200deg, rather than desired stress relieving, ~750deg). My pot can for sure.
With an IR thermometer, you must account for Emissivity of the object surface. Shiny metal emits less heat than dark metal, so emissivity of a mirror can be 0, where a black object can be ideal at 1.0. Molten lead is ~0.6. If this is not set into your pyrometer, your readings end up low. I use a thermocouple and hand held reader with my lead pot, pot temp set to produce 750deg. I dip cases in/out over a 30sec period (when deep(initial mid body)) for perfect stress relieving. Necks only takes maybe 10sec.

But I'm in the camp that only anneals when improving cases or measured seating forces vary beyond other control.
As far as case life, I agree with an earlier post that it's better to employ a better reloading plan and mitigate an annealing bandaid.

 

[Webster]

I just tried the lead pot for fun. It's a pain since lead will stick to the cases. Can you suggest a way to prevent lead sticking to the cases. Appreciate your comments on emissivity corrections. Hopefully the lead is above 650F. I get the feeling that if you have a setup that doesn't over work the necks you may get 15 reloads without annealing? I have been reloading for 40 years and I am not to concerned with split necks. Something I want try: I think it's possible to take a fired case from my 6BR prime and load, no dies used. The neck is tight on the bullet. Keep doing this until the shoulder needs bumped back or other problems creep up. . The rifle is shot mostly off a bench but it's intended purpose is for GH hunting. It's difficult to find good GH farms but they are still around.

 

[mikecr]

The solution to lead soldering itself to cases is a thin coating of MOBIL1.
Keep in mind that cases can sit forever at ~450 without grain change. And this is way hotter than hot to hold.

I've fitted necks with a couple cartridges, where no neck sizing is required. With this, no annealing is ever needed and seating forces do not ever change. Brass only work hardens when you work it (actual sizing cycles).
With a fitted body on my 26WSSM I produce zero dimensional changes, with many firings, and without ever FL sizing. I anneal the new cases for the forming only, and never again.
My shoulders on this cartridge are only 35deg presently, so I had to start bumping from the 8th reload. Next chamber shoulder will be at least 45deg, as I'm hoping to remove all sizing from it's reloading. But I have over 30 reloads on my cases here, and know right now they will last forever. This makes culling through Win brass a damn good deal.

I shoot 223 with a Cooper/wilson barrel. This is not fitted and leaves me bushing sizing necks a few thou & shoulder bumping only. I have not annealed these necks ever. Maybe someday..
For shooters who have decided that they will be working brass so much as to go ahead and frequently anneal, and their annealing method is so good as to be truly consistent, and they have worked up their load with this condition -good for them. I might do the same some day, with some chamber. But as far as I can tell, I will never be forced to chose that route.

 

[TC260]

I was refering to a lack of info on rapid annealing small copper or brass parts and thin sheets of brass. This is the area we are interested in. No problem I think we all understand what's involved with cartridge cases. We don't need to drag in other similar processes. I have read and searched beyond reason on the subject. Bottom line if you are annealing cartridge cases just do what the other sucessfull people are doing. I don't know why someone ask the same questions about annealing every week on this website. Just search and read te posts. I hope I don't sound angry just trying to provide info.

Yes I know what lack of info you were referring to. Using the correct terminology makes it substantially easier to find information. It's like searching cars and not finding anything about bikes .

What we're interested in is moving brass into the first stage of annealing, recovery. So look up "recovery annealing" and botta boom botta bing, that's where the science behind what we're doing is found for those who are interested. If the goal is to provide info and reduce confusion about annealing, the first step in that direction is to use the right words so everyone will eventually be on the same page. Reading threads on various forums it's such a mish-mash of vocabulary and quasi-science it's no wonder there's a question a day trying to sort it out.