I shoot a Rem 700 re-barrel (Chambered) to 6x284. When extracting fired cases. If new the very last caming action of the bolt it would stick. Apply a little more force and fired case was extracted. Then ran into a deal on some new Norma brass,and there were no extraction problems what so ever until about 4th or 5th firings of the Norma brass. Bought some new Lupua a while back and back to same extraction issues. But now the problem is worse,meaning I'll have hard extraction of 2nd and 3rd fired Lupua brass . I take the case full length size it and chamber (Empty) the case in rifle for fit and extraction no problem. Load it and shoot it and back to same problem. With Norma brass that when new extracted with no problem I annealed the brass,trimmed them,neck turned them loaded them with known lite loads and they were a nightmare to extract ? So what is the problem ? Is my only solution to shoot New Norma brass ? Did gun smith make a mistake in chambering this rifle. Also this bbl has a 1,000+ rnds through it. Could there be a new head space problem ? Thinking of selling this rifle as can't afford to re-barrel it now. Its a Rem 700 SA Sendero ,Sako extractor, with a Jewell trigger H&S stock . Still shoots Nosler 90gr BT under 1/2 MOA 26"Hart bbl with Vias Muzzle brake. Its just it hates Lupua brass and work hardened Norma brass.
My rifle doesn't like Lupua brass
- Thread starter Ironworker
- Start date
It could very well be over pressure. It may be a die/chamber mismatch too. There are 284 based cartridges set up for Winchester brass and then there is the Norma version which is most common. The Winchester is smaller at the base.--Mike
That's ok.. my palma gun don't like Lapua brass either.. and it could be very well that your chamber was cut for winchester brass.
No doubt my loads 99% of the time were full throttle loads. I had expanded primer pockets and ejector marks. I've since back way down but continue to have extraction problems with Lupua brass or work hardened Norma brass. I was once told Lupua brass is harder then Norma.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Ironworker,
I have a 6*284, A stiller Diamond back action, Krieger 28" 1:8 twist I shoot 107 SMK's with 48.5 grains of H-4350 its running 3200+fps don't have data with me so I don't remember exact fps and I have the same problem as you. I have to drop quit a bit of powder to get a smooth bolt lift then velocity is so low I might as well be shooting a 6br. I was out of time so I left it where it was and went to the shoot, I had no problems but don't like the idea of the pressure, I plan on working on it next week, My loaded rounds measures .271-.2715 my chamber is .272 I am going to turn a little more off the necks and see if that isn't my problem, if not I will go from there, I don't think 48.5 grains is too much powder.
Wayne.
I have a 6*284, A stiller Diamond back action, Krieger 28" 1:8 twist I shoot 107 SMK's with 48.5 grains of H-4350 its running 3200+fps don't have data with me so I don't remember exact fps and I have the same problem as you. I have to drop quit a bit of powder to get a smooth bolt lift then velocity is so low I might as well be shooting a 6br. I was out of time so I left it where it was and went to the shoot, I had no problems but don't like the idea of the pressure, I plan on working on it next week, My loaded rounds measures .271-.2715 my chamber is .272 I am going to turn a little more off the necks and see if that isn't my problem, if not I will go from there, I don't think 48.5 grains is too much powder.
Wayne.
Bozo:
You are right on about needing a little more clearance on your necks. a half thousandth is just not quite enough. 2 to 3 thousandths should be about right.
I had an AR-15 chambered in 22PPC, the chamber was a tight bench rest chamber (which I didn't know at the time), and I had to turn necks just to chamber a round. After 2-3 firings, the very stout PPC case was separating about an eighth of an inch BEHIND THE SHOULDER, not just in front of the web where separation usually occurs. After measuring a neck chamber cast, I found I only had about a half thousandth clearance, and the bolt was trying to yank the case out of the chamber while the neck was still expanded to the chamber neck wall. Pressures had to be high.
I turned all my brass to give about two and a half thousandths clearance, and never had another problem.
BEHIND
You are right on about needing a little more clearance on your necks. a half thousandth is just not quite enough. 2 to 3 thousandths should be about right.
I had an AR-15 chambered in 22PPC, the chamber was a tight bench rest chamber (which I didn't know at the time), and I had to turn necks just to chamber a round. After 2-3 firings, the very stout PPC case was separating about an eighth of an inch BEHIND THE SHOULDER, not just in front of the web where separation usually occurs. After measuring a neck chamber cast, I found I only had about a half thousandth clearance, and the bolt was trying to yank the case out of the chamber while the neck was still expanded to the chamber neck wall. Pressures had to be high.
I turned all my brass to give about two and a half thousandths clearance, and never had another problem.
BEHIND
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
Lapua 6.5X284 brass is bigger at the back end than Norma or WW.
It's also possible that when the action was trued up during rebarreling, the mechanical primary extraction has been reduced. Primary mechanical 'camming' occurs as the root of the bolt handle contacts the cooresponding angle on the reciever as the handle is rotated upward. When the lugs are cut and the locking lug abuttments faced off during truing, the handle effectively moves to the rear...away from the recievers matching angle. This shortens the amount of mechanical 'camming' and makes the work happen over a smaller amount of bolt rotation. Both of these are bad juju for extraction.
You can easily check this my watching how the camming surfaces interact during bolt opening and checking to see how far back the front of the bolt handle is from the machined slot in the reciever when the handle is down. On a 700, if there's more than .010-.015 of clearance here, you've lost camming.
The correction for this is to have the handle repositioned forward by someone experienced in this. On 700's, this situation is very common. And commonly overlooked, even by people that should know better.
It's also possible that when the action was trued up during rebarreling, the mechanical primary extraction has been reduced. Primary mechanical 'camming' occurs as the root of the bolt handle contacts the cooresponding angle on the reciever as the handle is rotated upward. When the lugs are cut and the locking lug abuttments faced off during truing, the handle effectively moves to the rear...away from the recievers matching angle. This shortens the amount of mechanical 'camming' and makes the work happen over a smaller amount of bolt rotation. Both of these are bad juju for extraction.
You can easily check this my watching how the camming surfaces interact during bolt opening and checking to see how far back the front of the bolt handle is from the machined slot in the reciever when the handle is down. On a 700, if there's more than .010-.015 of clearance here, you've lost camming.
The correction for this is to have the handle repositioned forward by someone experienced in this. On 700's, this situation is very common. And commonly overlooked, even by people that should know better.
if the neck clearance is not the problem, neck clearance should be at least .0025 to .003 measured at the loaded round.
Usually sticky cases with mild loads is a chamber problem,usually the chamber is small or tight in the web area,the case expands back there and you dont get any spring back there.
fixes would be talk to a gunsmith and have the back of the chamber opened up.
Usually sticky cases with mild loads is a chamber problem,usually the chamber is small or tight in the web area,the case expands back there and you dont get any spring back there.
fixes would be talk to a gunsmith and have the back of the chamber opened up.
Ironworker said:
Yes, Lapua is a little more firm than Norma. I experimented with Norma for two weeks once, and when you work with both of them, the difference is noticeable.
The cheapest fix is to throw away any and all brass that was full throttled. Nothing is going to improve its performance even if you reduce the loads. You basically ruined it. Start over with new brass with light loads and work up ... full length sizing each and every time you reload. No half measures like body sizing or neck sizing only. Lapua is the most consistent brass out there. I've used it exclusively for four years and it slides in out of my chamber like butter.
-------------------------------------------------
"If the action bolt is clicking or popping at the top of the bolt lift, it indicates that the brass is too big near the base. Once you start getting this, you might as well throw the brass in the garbage, as it will be impossible to stop when using full power loads. If the bolt closes and opens hard throughout the whole stroke without the pop at the top, this indicates the shoulder needs to be pushed back." Jim Carstensen
Read Jim's whole article here: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/full-length-bushing-dies-and-die-conversions/
But when useing new Norma Brass the chambering and extraction of hot loads is smooth as silk. Is it simply cause its softer brass ?
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Jim,Outdoorsman said:
You have answered the question to my exact problem. I have a couple of questions to clarify what you have said.
#1. I use a body die on my 6*284 to size the body and bump the shoulder are you saying that is a bad thing? I need to just full length size only?
I don't want to use a full length standard die if I don't have to because it sizes the neck to far, what are my alternatives?
#2. The gun shoots the load very well I just have sticky bolt lift at the top as you described, I am shooting 48.5 grains of H-4350 and 107 SMKs with no visible signs of pressure, ie. marks on the head stamp, flattened primers, or split cases, do you think the rear part of the chamber may need opened up as mentioned by FJIM ?
I have reduced the powder charge and you have to reduce it quit a bit, to the point you are at 6br velocities, I am not going to go for that I have a 6brx.
Is it because as you said I have already ruined my brass and just need to start over? I have tried many powders in this rifle and to get accuracy I have to run dasher velocities or under except with H-4350 then there is the lift problem, I am dammed if I do and dammed if I don't. Any further instructions from you would be appreciated Jim
Wayne.
Measuring just in front of extractor grove on case head on both fired and loaded cases its .499 and its the same on Norma brass also. I once used Hornady brass and the first shot stuck not only stuck in my chamber but it broke the Rem 700 extractor !
P1ZombieKiller
Silver $$ Contributor
My 6x284 only like Win brass.
I concur with Jim Carstensen's analizes: I do not intend to disrupt this thread, but Jim brought something to mind. I have a .220 swift that I 'fullthrottle' and upon opening the bolt I get that dreaded 'click'. I resize FL but push the shoulder back just enough so the round chambers and maintain 'zero' headspace. After sizing, the round chambers and ejects perfectly. I have experienced this in the past with a 22-250, but with those I could visually see the 'bulge' in the web section of the brass. My swift brass looks perfect and I get many reloading from it. (Please do not heckle me with hot loads in a swift. I like it that way,,maybe my wife wouldn't if she knew.)
I just purchased some Norma brass that was made in 2009. Hope Norma got all the bugs out when this stuff was made. Heard that 1st or 2nd generation was undesirable.
bozo699 said:Jim,Outdoorsman said:
You have answered the question to my exact problem. I have a couple of questions to clarify what you have said.
#1. I use a body die on my 6*284 to size the body and bump the shoulder are you saying that is a bad thing? I need to just full length size only?
I don't want to use a full length standard die if I don't have to because it sizes the neck to far, what are my alternatives?
#2. The gun shoots the load very well I just have sticky bolt lift at the top as you described, I am shooting 48.5 grains of H-4350 and 107 SMKs with no visible signs of pressure, ie. marks on the head stamp, flattened primers, or split cases, do you think the rear part of the chamber may need opened up as mentioned by FJIM ?
I have reduced the powder charge and you have to reduce it quit a bit, to the point you are at 6br velocities, I am not going to go for that I have a 6brx.
Is it because as you said I have already ruined my brass and just need to start over? I have tried many powders in this rifle and to get accuracy I have to run dasher velocities or under except with H-4350 then there is the lift problem, I am dammed if I do and dammed if I don't. Any further instructions from you would be appreciated Jim
That was just a quote from Jim's article you saw above. He can be reached here:
JLC Precision (Jim Carstensen)
jlcprec@netins.net
13095 450th Ave
Bellevue, IA 52031
Shop phone: (563) 689-6258, cell: (563) 212-2984
10 year old post. The problem was a incorrectly cut chamber. The bbl is history.I now shoot 6mm Creedmoor,no looking back.
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