Just how accurates is a muzzle loader at longer ranges? I'd like to hear some stories and takes on this. I've thought bout buying savage smokeless powder muzzle loader. They don't allow rifles on deer here. Just curious.
muzzle loader?
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CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Last year I made a perfect shot on a deer at 155 yards.
This year another perfect shot at 150 yards. Using a Thompson Center Omega 50. In practice I can make "kill" groups at 200 yards. It took a lot of playing around with different sabots, bullets, bullets without sabots, powder etc.
Settled on 86 gr. of Blackhorn 209 with TC's 250 Slams ( I think) with regular, red sabots. Those yellow "super glides" sucked in my rifle as do things like those Hornady 300's without sabots that expand the base. All rifles are different creatures. Quality ones can be made to shoot.
This year another perfect shot at 150 yards. Using a Thompson Center Omega 50. In practice I can make "kill" groups at 200 yards. It took a lot of playing around with different sabots, bullets, bullets without sabots, powder etc.
Settled on 86 gr. of Blackhorn 209 with TC's 250 Slams ( I think) with regular, red sabots. Those yellow "super glides" sucked in my rifle as do things like those Hornady 300's without sabots that expand the base. All rifles are different creatures. Quality ones can be made to shoot.
With most black powder muzzle loaders i would say 200 to 250 max. I don't know about the smokeless, if you do some searching there are guys building custom smokeless muzzle loaders on remington actions that are claiming to shoot moa to 500 yards. My remington 700ml (not a custom built one, the way it came from the factory)can shoot a 6 inch 5 shot group at 200 yards.
Over a dozen years, my Savage has been a very reliable 1MOA shooter, give or take a pinch, at 200yds. Plenty good enough accuracy for any deer.
Many folks are using .458 bullets in their 10ML's, but it's hard (and expensive) to find a sleek/pointy one that will reliably expand at the extremes ranges on ribcage shots. Not that any deer that ever walked is going to survive real long with a half inch hole through their bellows.
Am using a 250gr SST (.452") that tends to dramatically expand on close shots or if I hit anything hard because I am driving it far faster than the designer ever intended. Some folks are using this bullet in the 300gr flavor and it seems to retain its integrity at the slower velocity.
Am going to look very seriously at the 260gr Scorpion PT (.451") from Harvester along with their red crush sabot next year. One, the combination fits my barrel very firmly, which you need for performance/accuracy. Two, it is a sleek little missile made of dead soft lead with 3% antimony so that it will flatten at extreme distances, yet it will retain its integrity on close shots like softer lead usually will.
Have kilt a good mess of deer with my current combination in the Savage and the rest of my smokers have been collecting dust ever since I bought it.
Many folks are using .458 bullets in their 10ML's, but it's hard (and expensive) to find a sleek/pointy one that will reliably expand at the extremes ranges on ribcage shots. Not that any deer that ever walked is going to survive real long with a half inch hole through their bellows.
Am using a 250gr SST (.452") that tends to dramatically expand on close shots or if I hit anything hard because I am driving it far faster than the designer ever intended. Some folks are using this bullet in the 300gr flavor and it seems to retain its integrity at the slower velocity.
Am going to look very seriously at the 260gr Scorpion PT (.451") from Harvester along with their red crush sabot next year. One, the combination fits my barrel very firmly, which you need for performance/accuracy. Two, it is a sleek little missile made of dead soft lead with 3% antimony so that it will flatten at extreme distances, yet it will retain its integrity on close shots like softer lead usually will.
Have kilt a good mess of deer with my current combination in the Savage and the rest of my smokers have been collecting dust ever since I bought it.
1MOA huh? hmmmm. you guys see them shoot that gunwerks muzzle loader at 950 yards? nuts. what kinda velocity you guys pushing those sabots and/or slugs?
Hmm. I keep going back and forth between this thing. keep seeing things that make me think it's just too much trouble. that looks pretty good there though. what will it do at 300?
i was in the same delimma, i have wanted something long range and accurate, but could not see paying the price on some of these smokeless mz.just recently had one built on remington mz action 26" pacnor shooting a 275 parker bullet,45 cal full bore sized to my barrel at 2650fps, this bullet has a bc of .385, and will do 1moa and better to 600yds, and i was under $1000.00.look up arrowhead outfitters " luke" he will take care of you.call me if i can help 1 812 592 2208. alex.
Toby, I have never fired mine at 300 and it's mostly because it doesn't carry adequate steam to 300yds. The better .451/452/.458 bullets typically have a BC of .200-.260...about like a 4x8 sheet of plywood and they have a rainbow trajectory beyond 200yds. They also DRIFT...a lot.
Where they do shine is that they only require maintenance every 50-100 shots. No worries about rust from the propellants either.
The only drawback to the 10ML system is that you have to be very conscious of building up heat in the barrel when range testing. I do not play with mine to any degree unless it is below 60F and if it's 40F, so much the better. If you feel any warmth in that barrel at all and you at at near max loads, you will blow up the sabots....and accuracy goes out the window.
This was a test that I did at 250yds using the 250SST @ 2250fps. It was sighted in 3" high at 100 and was 3" low at 200. There was a fairly stiff 10 o'clock wind that displaced the group 8" from center and the windage of the group opened to 6.5" wide. It will not hold 1000 ft/lbs at 300 yards.
Where they do shine is that they only require maintenance every 50-100 shots. No worries about rust from the propellants either.
The only drawback to the 10ML system is that you have to be very conscious of building up heat in the barrel when range testing. I do not play with mine to any degree unless it is below 60F and if it's 40F, so much the better. If you feel any warmth in that barrel at all and you at at near max loads, you will blow up the sabots....and accuracy goes out the window.
This was a test that I did at 250yds using the 250SST @ 2250fps. It was sighted in 3" high at 100 and was 3" low at 200. There was a fairly stiff 10 o'clock wind that displaced the group 8" from center and the windage of the group opened to 6.5" wide. It will not hold 1000 ft/lbs at 300 yards.
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Toby, 5 of my friends have purchased the 10ML-II in the dozen years I have owned mine once they saw the results. Every one of them took very little effort to shoot 2MOA at 100yds, which is plenty of accuracy for deer from a practical standpoint. In fact ALL of them would shoot groups into the 1.5MOA range. The one fellow is a little bit more of an accuracy nut than the others (they are more pure hunters) and has his 10ML-II shooting into the 1MOA range at 100yds. But, he put in the time/effort and pays attention to detail.
I am anal about consistency of seating pressure, mic-ing my sabots and segregating them into lots as well as properly indexing the sabot so that each petal grabs TWO of the rifling lands. That is why my 10ML-II has shot many groups from .68-.88" at 100yds. Many of my very tightest groups have come using a fine, beaded blade front sight and a rear mounted peep sight. The sight radius is loooong and irons were my forte for many years.
I am anal about consistency of seating pressure, mic-ing my sabots and segregating them into lots as well as properly indexing the sabot so that each petal grabs TWO of the rifling lands. That is why my 10ML-II has shot many groups from .68-.88" at 100yds. Many of my very tightest groups have come using a fine, beaded blade front sight and a rear mounted peep sight. The sight radius is loooong and irons were my forte for many years.
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