Most consistent/repeatable barrel for Annie rebarrel

[Tim Slater]

That's a great question.

I shoot long range highpower events, and some of my friends in the sport are beginning to play around with hand loaded rimfire ammunition and fast twist barrels. Its pretty interesting stuff - unfortunately I can't comment, I have no experience beyond 100 yards with a rimfire.

The 16 twist is as old as time though, and seems optimal for 40 grain bullets - again, at least out to 100 yards, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there. I just don't remember anyone challenging the idea (until now!).

All the best,

kev

Kevin,

I don't know if this was just a British thing, but some older Bisley TR 7.62 shooters, like my father in law, kept a 14T for 300-600 and a 12T for 800-1000.

I know the 14T had it's origins in minimising yaw poor quality mil-spec issue ammo, but one would think this would be a problem at all ranges. Perhaps there was a method in their madness?

 

[Hoser]

Why not just rebarrel your Vudoo?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Good morning Scott:

My apologies, but I have to disagree on a few points (this is simply my opinion):

Krieger barrels are exceptional, three of my National titles were won with them - and they have been some of the best blanks I have ever fitted and tested. If you have not tried them (and I am guessing you have not), you should. I know cut rifled barrels have been dismissed in the BR world (at least according to the WLM), but my real world experience has been far different.

And another BR myth (again in my humble opinion) is the whole "slugging" idea. All slugging will tell any smith is the direction and amount of taper. That's it. Anyone who tells you they can tell how well a barrel will shoot, or EXACTLY where to crown it is lying to you. Actual testing / shooting is the only measure of crown position. Personally, I finish blanks as long as they allow (given the proper setbacks for lapping runout), and test them - setting them back incrementally until workable performance is found. And I have seen plenty of blanks ruined by improper slugging.

Just my $.02.............

All the best,

kev

Hi Kevin, Is there a particular profile you use in regards to Krieger barrels. straight, straight taper, radius taper?

Lee

 

[Tony K Harper]

Tony then why is it Calfee says they can't be competitive? I've never shot a cut rifled barrel and wouldn't be able to tell a difference if I did. Today's barrels are so good it's amazing what scores are being shot, but then none of those high scores of today have been shot with a cut rifled barrels. Why aren't they being used in br more often? Is it a monkey see monkey do type thing or is there a real reason why?

Brsam,

If guys thought, they could win with them they would be used more often.

RFBR is a very competitive sport. The people that get into it and stay for more than two - three years are driven to do anything to win. Some have deep pockets and don't mind trying any and everything.

The first thing one must realize is anything, and I mean anything, can and does happen in RFBR.

I mentioned that the very first 250 25X IR 50/50 card was shot with a cut rifled barrel. The very first 2500 PSL target was shot with a rifle that had a broken scope. One of the crosshairs was laying in the bottom of the scope. One more example: The highest ARA agg. ever shot was with a Factory built Time Precision rifle.

Now with that in mind there is no such thing as this or that can't win.

What Calfee is saying is he believes it won't happen often with such and such equipment. He thinks the odds are on the side of different equipment.

It is a good thing everyone doesn't think that way or we would all be shooting identical equipment and what fun would that be?

To my mind we are already shooting rifles that are too much alike.

I liked it better back in the old days when one would see about every kind of contraption you can think of on the line.

A better question to ask Calfee is why don't you think this or that can win? I can assure you he has his reasons, but everyone is free to make up their own mind.

TKH (4628)

 

[Brentwinkey]

Why not just rebarrel your Vudoo?

Vudoo is having a Krieger I won from a shoot put on as we speak

 

[kevin nevius]

Kevin,

I don't know if this was just a British thing, but some older Bisley TR 7.62 shooters, like my father in law, kept a 14T for 300-600 and a 12T for 800-1000.

I know the 14T had it's origins in minimising yaw poor quality mil-spec issue ammo, but one would think this would be a problem at all ranges. Perhaps there was a method in their madness?

Good morning Tim:

I only ran 155 grain projectiles in Palma events (in 13 twist barrels), just to keep life easy. There was never a stabilization problem, but I never tested a faster twist either.

The matches in the states lift project weight restriction from Palma events, so many guys were running the 185 grain "Juggernauts" (Berger) in I believe 11 twist barrels - which worked great for the 155's also. I don't believe there is a downside to over stabilizing a bullet, but that's a question for someone a lot more knowledgeable than me (Brian Litz?).

All the best.

kev (OU812)

 

[kevin nevius]

Hi Kevin, Is there a particular profile you use in regards to Krieger barrels. straight, straight taper, radius taper?

Lee

Hi Lee - I hope you and yours are well!! (great to hear from you!)

In the actions I have that accommodate smaller diameter tennons, straight contours have worked well - and I typically use .950" blanks purely for rifle balance. It puts some additional weight between the shoulder and handstop.

Some more opinion here - the idea that larger tennons are somehow a deterrent to accuracy is myth. The larger tennon (such as is used in the Swindlehurst and 40X design) actually creates LESS bore / chamber deformity because of the additional material / diameter at the shoulder. And all manufacturers (that I know of) lap post contouring. This is another example of - "if something is said often enough, it becomes fact". Any standard contoured blank works well on the Swindlehurst - I am using Remington Target contours from Krieger now, again for balance (1,200 at the tennon, .875" at the muzzle). Exceptional barrels.

Have a great 2022 season!!

kev

 

[Tim Slater]

Good morning Tim:

I only ran 155 grain projectiles in Palma events (in 13 twist barrels), just to keep life easy. There was never a stabilization problem, but I never tested a faster twist either.

The matches in the states lift project weight restriction from Palma events, so many guys were running the 185 grain "Juggernauts" (Berger) in I believe 11 twist barrels - which worked great for the 155's also. I don't believe there is a downside to over stabilizing a bullet, but that's a question for someone a lot more knowledgeable than me (Brian Litz?).

All the best.

kev (OU812)

Hi Kevin,

A13T is what most TR-shooting friends my age have, at least from memory.

As for over-stabilising, the legend is that early British Nato-spec 7.62mm was poor, especially the 144gr bullet. Someone, possibly George Swenson of Swing rifle fame (and the UK importer of Schultz & Larsen barrels) hit upon the idea of a slower 14T twist to minimise rotational distortion. But I don't know why a 12T was preferred over a 14T for long range.

I would have said the two rifles thing was entirely a hold over from the start of 7.62mm TR, when many existing shooters augmented a No 4 rebarreled to 7.62mm with a Mauser a for short range*. But, that was because the No 4 was thought to offer positive compensation at long range (and tighter elevation).

*Technically P14s were allowed in Service B matches from about 1935, although I don't know how popular these were.

 

[dutch14]

The bullet smiths at Sierra say there are no accuracy problems with over stabilization.

 

[Tim Slater]

The bullet smiths at Sierra say there are no accuracy problems with over stabilization.

Perhaps not with quality bullets, but they aren't shooting 1970s mil-spec!

Until 2008-ish the British Ministry of Defence (MOD) paid the NRA for range time at Bisley with ammunition. By the 7.62mm era, this was mostly sourced from Radway Green, formerly a government factory, and later privatised (now run by British Aerospace). The ammo was issued to competitors at the Imperial meeting (GB prone fullbore championship), and sold by the NRA. Clubs could, and did, source ammo elsewhere, or even allow handholds, for practise and matches. But if you wanted to shoot the Imperial, and to do well, your rifle had to shoot NRA issue. The NRA did complain enough that RG improved their quality control somewhat, resulting in Greenspot. But it was still a 145gr mil-spec. As well as a slower twist, a tight bore (.305/.298 vs .308/.300) was common.

From 2008-ish the MOD started paying cash, and the NRA bought commercial match ammo loaded to its specs with a 155gr Sierra Palma MK. RWS had the contract at first, and latterly it's GGG.

 

[flatlander]

I've chambered several Krieger barrels for Stiller 2500XR, Rem 40XB, and a couple of Vudoo V-22 repeaters, and have had very good results out of each of them, three of which were sendero contour, with the most recent one being a #4 sporter for a light sporter V-22. All were chambered with a PTG EPS reamer, and I'll be doing another Krieger sendero for a new Vudoo Three-60 action in a week or so. I've also done a couple of V-22S bbl jobs with Shilen ratchet select match bbls in their R5 & R0 contours, and after mounting a Pro-X tuner on the R5, was very impressed with some of the little one-hole groups out of it at 50yds. I've also just finished a Benchmark 3-groove in their copy of the R5 contour on one of these V-22S actions, and am looking forward to some decent conditions so I can see how it shoots compared to the Shilen. Based on what I've seen out of all these barrels to date, it seems that we have a very fine selection of custom 22RF barrels available to us here today - now if only SK/Lapua could up their production to the point where anyone who wanted could order in lot samples to test, and then be able to purchase in quantity when we find the lot or lots our barrels like....

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Hi Lee - I hope you and yours are well!! (great to hear from you!)

In the actions I have that accommodate smaller diameter tennons, straight contours have worked well - and I typically use .950" blanks purely for rifle balance. It puts some additional weight between the shoulder and handstop.

Some more opinion here - the idea that larger tennons are somehow a deterrent to accuracy is myth. The larger tennon (such as is used in the Swindlehurst and 40X design) actually creates LESS bore / chamber deformity because of the additional material / diameter at the shoulder. And all manufacturers (that I know of) lap post contouring. This is another example of - "if something is said often enough, it becomes fact". Any standard contoured blank works well on the Swindlehurst - I am using Remington Target contours from Krieger now, again for balance (1,200 at the tennon, .875" at the muzzle). Exceptional barrels.

Have a great 2022 season!!

kev

Thanks Kev, I been well, hope the same for you as well. thank you for the information on the Krieger barrel. the Remington target contour were something I was looking at in fact the same profile 1.200-.875.


Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

- now if only SK/Lapua could up their production to the point where anyone who wanted could order in lot samples to test, and then be able to purchase in quantity when we find the lot or lots our barrels like....

I am pretty sure Lapua is at max production and with much of the rest of the world shut down we have been getting more than our normal share. The real problem is the increase in demand and what would help there is if Eley would return to their former level of excellence.

 

[Tony K Harper]

I am pretty sure Lapua is at max production and with much of the rest of the world shut down we have been getting more than our normal share. The real problem is the increase in demand and what would help there is if Eley would return to their former level of excellence.

Amen!!!

TKH (4628)

 

[flatlander]

I am pretty sure Lapua is at max production and with much of the rest of the world shut down we have been getting more than our normal share. The real problem is the increase in demand and what would help there is if Eley would return to their former level of excellence.

I have no doubt that your comment on the increase in demand is playing a huge part in the shortfall in availability of SK/Lapua 22RF ammo. I've mentioned this before - whether here or on another site - that the current explosion of interest in and demand for precision 22RF rifles has played a big part in the demand for high quality match ammo. Never before in history has there been something like the internet to spread the information on such rifles and drop-in replacement match grade barrels and so increase the demand. In the U.S. alone, the number of first-time buyers of firearms has risen into the millions, and while only a percentage of these new shooters are focused on RF shooting, it's obvious from some of the posts I've read here and on other shooting-related sites that there's a lot of new shooters out there who're just now becoming aware of the need to test different lots of the same brand & grade of match ammo in order to find something that shoots to the potential of rifles with higher quality or custom barrels. I still read posts where the owner of a new Vudoo or Rim-X or Bergera or any of the other brands that are touted as 'precision rifles' has gone out and bought a variety of higher grade 22RF match ammo, and then been disappointed in not finding anything that gives the accuracy he or she expected. IOW, there are still a lot of folks out there who expect to get a substantial increase in accuracy just by purchasing random lots of Tennex or Midas+. Eventually, these folks become aware of the need to lot test, either by reading online or - hopefully - by joining a club or group of other shooters who'll explain it to them, and then demonstrate the results of lot testing to reinforce the truth of the need to test. It's been sort of a 'perfect storm', with the pandemic causing a reduction in the production of match ammo at the same time as the internet has helped to create more demand for such ammo than ammunition makers have ever seen before.

When I built my first custom precision 22RF repeater on a Stiller 2500XR action in early 2016, it was a simple matter to call a wholesale distributor to get samples of a half-dozen or more lots of any of the SK or Lapua ammo, do the testing, then follow up with the purchase of a case or two of it. Boy, do I miss being able to do that today!