Most Accurate Cartridge
- Thread starter lynn
- Start date
I read that as well and surely he doesn't think the 6br with a 105 vld is more accurate than his ppc????
My problem with his comment is the bullet he chose not the case itself. You're just not going to get a good BT bullet to out shoot a custom FB just too many variables involved and if you own a Junke you will see what I am saying.
My problem with his comment is the bullet he chose not the case itself. You're just not going to get a good BT bullet to out shoot a custom FB just too many variables involved and if you own a Junke you will see what I am saying.
Forum Boss
Administrator
Perhaps the context of the question was "what cartridge is most accurate at a variety of distances". Having witnessed Berger 105s in a 6BR win a club 100 yard match, and since Terry Brady has gone under an inch at 600 with the same bullet, and Jason has some 5" groups with a similar load,106 Clinch Rivers) at 1000 yards, I'm not sure I'd bet against Pindell's suggestion.
BTW, Jason has seen some positive benefits from closed meplats on his CRs.
I do predict we're going to see some heavier bullets in the 200-yard relays of short-range benchrest matches. I just shot some Lapua factory 105 loaded ammo today and they grouped in 3/4",5 shots) at 200 yards without wind flags.
BTW, Jason has seen some positive benefits from closed meplats on his CRs.
I do predict we're going to see some heavier bullets in the 200-yard relays of short-range benchrest matches. I just shot some Lapua factory 105 loaded ammo today and they grouped in 3/4",5 shots) at 200 yards without wind flags.
Problem with Ferris's statement about the 6 BR I'm not sure he ever competed with one and won. The 22 PPC & 6 PPC gave Ferris the needed pts to make the HOF. With the cartridge configurations out there today there is no cartridge on the horizon that will replace the 6 PPC at 100/200 range shooting.
Stephen Perry
Stephen Perry
Following Mr Pindell's logic, short range shooters should have two rifles and two cartridges. One for extreme accuracy under good conditions and another for best accuracy under less than good conditions. That's something I now do at 600 yards but 600 is a lot different game than 100/200/300. Given that the 6PPC is capable of mid-teen aggs at 100 yards and high-teen aggs at 200 yards, I find it hard to believe that shooters would consider changing horses now. And, in my opinion, those aggs are indicative of the shooters ability only. I personally think the PPC istself is capable of even smaller groups and aggregates.
I would think a better solution to a two cartridge approach would be the PPC with mid-weight bullets and a mid-level velocity. That way you would always be assured of a mid-level performance.
JMHO
Ray
I would think a better solution to a two cartridge approach would be the PPC with mid-weight bullets and a mid-level velocity. That way you would always be assured of a mid-level performance.
JMHO
Ray
Donovan
To understand where Ferris Pindell was coming from you need to study his bullet making and HOF shooting past. From what I know Ferris started shooting BR back in the 1950's. From his starting till 1957 when the HV class was defined there was 1 class in BR and 1 Organization Big Gun NBRSA. Big Gun was any gun sand bag rest until about 1955 then any rest and any caliber until 1960 when Sporter class defined small guns and LV became the 10 1/2 # copy of a HV.
Not sure what calibers Ferris shot in Big Gun but I know he loved his 30's. Ferris earned 5 HOF pts early but stalled out until 1974 when the the itty bitty 22 PPC and its cousin the 6PPC later put him in the Hall I think in 1981 along with my bud Perry Morton and Jeff Fowler.
Ferris worked for about 25 years at Sierra bullets designing and testing bullets. To know Ferris at Sierra you need to know Arvie Martin. Arvie a master machinist himself designed and put into practice carbide bullet making dies new to the bullet making industry. Ferris designed and helped build 1 of my Rails and blue printed and machined 2 of my actions. He was the Master.
While at Sierra Ferris, Martin, and others from Sierra used San Gabriel Valley Gun Club as their outside test Range. San Gabriel recently closed was the base of my operations as Shoot Director for 11 years registering NBRSA/IBS Shoots. Hundreds of Shoots later along with 2 BR Schools we're done at San Gabriel. Movin on up to Angeles Range to continue our BR Program next year. Lucky us.
They were both gone from Sierra by the mid 1970's when I spent considerable time with Martin Hull then Sierra's ballistics chair, Ferris's former position. Neither of the 3 were on Board when Sierra made the move to Missouri.
Ferris was and is the designer and machinist for the PPC. Him along with Palmisano and Pawlak made it go. Should really be the PPPC. Hate to let Ray get one up on me, never in his best days, but in 'The Book of the Twenty Two' by Sam Fadala Lou Palmisano gets alot of credit for the PPC. A man with money, a man with a vision Lou partnered with a similar man in Ferris that was looking for a wildcat that he could pour his soul into. Add Dan Pawlak's test lab and enter the stud. Slow to dominate not until 1985 but from then on success never looked so good. I say 1985 because that is where I see PPC dominating the next year .222 and 6x47 are not in the running. When you see BR actions made with the PPC bolt face the race was on, still running PPC still leading. Top that Gomer.
Sooooooooooooo next.
Stephen Perry
To understand where Ferris Pindell was coming from you need to study his bullet making and HOF shooting past. From what I know Ferris started shooting BR back in the 1950's. From his starting till 1957 when the HV class was defined there was 1 class in BR and 1 Organization Big Gun NBRSA. Big Gun was any gun sand bag rest until about 1955 then any rest and any caliber until 1960 when Sporter class defined small guns and LV became the 10 1/2 # copy of a HV.
Not sure what calibers Ferris shot in Big Gun but I know he loved his 30's. Ferris earned 5 HOF pts early but stalled out until 1974 when the the itty bitty 22 PPC and its cousin the 6PPC later put him in the Hall I think in 1981 along with my bud Perry Morton and Jeff Fowler.
Ferris worked for about 25 years at Sierra bullets designing and testing bullets. To know Ferris at Sierra you need to know Arvie Martin. Arvie a master machinist himself designed and put into practice carbide bullet making dies new to the bullet making industry. Ferris designed and helped build 1 of my Rails and blue printed and machined 2 of my actions. He was the Master.
While at Sierra Ferris, Martin, and others from Sierra used San Gabriel Valley Gun Club as their outside test Range. San Gabriel recently closed was the base of my operations as Shoot Director for 11 years registering NBRSA/IBS Shoots. Hundreds of Shoots later along with 2 BR Schools we're done at San Gabriel. Movin on up to Angeles Range to continue our BR Program next year. Lucky us.
They were both gone from Sierra by the mid 1970's when I spent considerable time with Martin Hull then Sierra's ballistics chair, Ferris's former position. Neither of the 3 were on Board when Sierra made the move to Missouri.
Ferris was and is the designer and machinist for the PPC. Him along with Palmisano and Pawlak made it go. Should really be the PPPC. Hate to let Ray get one up on me, never in his best days, but in 'The Book of the Twenty Two' by Sam Fadala Lou Palmisano gets alot of credit for the PPC. A man with money, a man with a vision Lou partnered with a similar man in Ferris that was looking for a wildcat that he could pour his soul into. Add Dan Pawlak's test lab and enter the stud. Slow to dominate not until 1985 but from then on success never looked so good. I say 1985 because that is where I see PPC dominating the next year .222 and 6x47 are not in the running. When you see BR actions made with the PPC bolt face the race was on, still running PPC still leading. Top that Gomer.
Sooooooooooooo next.
Stephen Perry
Thanks Lynn
You know I don't have a mean bone in my body especially with California BR Shooters. I am not up to date on some of the changes in BR, especially foreign to 600/1000. All I do is Short Range BR and Pellet BR.
Jan is having the 200/300 Nats today and tomorrow. Waiting for some results. Go Bryn.
Stephen Perry
You know I don't have a mean bone in my body especially with California BR Shooters. I am not up to date on some of the changes in BR, especially foreign to 600/1000. All I do is Short Range BR and Pellet BR.
Jan is having the 200/300 Nats today and tomorrow. Waiting for some results. Go Bryn.
Stephen Perry
Lynn
Talked to Bill Mellor this evening about the LR Nats. He was going to go but didn't trust the weather getting there and back. Sounds like a big California contingency going to Reno. Hoping Bryn Borras does well. A few stayed home to avoid snow problems.
Stephen Perry
Talked to Bill Mellor this evening about the LR Nats. He was going to go but didn't trust the weather getting there and back. Sounds like a big California contingency going to Reno. Hoping Bryn Borras does well. A few stayed home to avoid snow problems.
Stephen Perry
RoyinNC
Gold $$ Contributor
I talked to Mr. Pindell at the Super Shoot the last 2 years and was able to inspect his "new bullet". Mr. Pindell has actually developed a die that will allow you to close the meplat on any conventional hollow point bullet. I have a friend who bought one of the dies and has been using it on 105gr Bergers with some success at 600yds.
FYI,
Roy in NC
FYI,
Roy in NC
Lynn - Do you really think I would drive 900 miles one way to shoot in the winds of Reno? I learned my lesson the hard way in 1996, 1998, 2000, and 2002. I don't even want to think about 2004!
As I've been told, and this could be wrong, the closed tip is made by first uniforming the hollow point with a special reamer and then closing it with a pointing die. The critical part is to first uniform the point. I'm wondering if the actual closing of the point results in a further improvement but I suppose someone like Pindell would have tested that.
Speaking of Ferris Pindell, I've seen mention in a few recent posts about him being the designer of the PPC and it being "his" cartridge. That conflicts with the real history of the cartridge, IMHO. The real designer of the PPC was Dr. Lou Palmisano. A woodchuck and live varmint hunter, Dr. Lou was using one of the "baby Swift" 6mm wildcats, which is almost identical to todays PPC case, and was having problems with cases splitting while necking and fire-forming. He happened onto a box of SAKO 220 Russian brass which was virtually unknown in the USA at that time. Seeing it as the answer to his problems he had his reamer re-ground to the base dimensions of the 220 brass and the problems disappeared. He took the new cartridge to Super Shoot II where he met Pindell who suggested some refinements in neck and throat dimensions and the rest is history.,At least history according to Ray, that is.)
Ray
As I've been told, and this could be wrong, the closed tip is made by first uniforming the hollow point with a special reamer and then closing it with a pointing die. The critical part is to first uniform the point. I'm wondering if the actual closing of the point results in a further improvement but I suppose someone like Pindell would have tested that.
Speaking of Ferris Pindell, I've seen mention in a few recent posts about him being the designer of the PPC and it being "his" cartridge. That conflicts with the real history of the cartridge, IMHO. The real designer of the PPC was Dr. Lou Palmisano. A woodchuck and live varmint hunter, Dr. Lou was using one of the "baby Swift" 6mm wildcats, which is almost identical to todays PPC case, and was having problems with cases splitting while necking and fire-forming. He happened onto a box of SAKO 220 Russian brass which was virtually unknown in the USA at that time. Seeing it as the answer to his problems he had his reamer re-ground to the base dimensions of the 220 brass and the problems disappeared. He took the new cartridge to Super Shoot II where he met Pindell who suggested some refinements in neck and throat dimensions and the rest is history.,At least history according to Ray, that is.)
Ray
Ray
We all try and get the PPC thing right. Actually the cases Palmisano took to the 1972 Nats were the 220 Russian cases with no alterations. He asked Ferris to shape the case for BR use. Ferris did that and the case became the 22 PPC, vastly diiferent from the 220 Russian. Ferris was the case designer with Lou's help. That's OK I didn't that either until later.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
We all try and get the PPC thing right. Actually the cases Palmisano took to the 1972 Nats were the 220 Russian cases with no alterations. He asked Ferris to shape the case for BR use. Ferris did that and the case became the 22 PPC, vastly diiferent from the 220 Russian. Ferris was the case designer with Lou's help. That's OK I didn't that either until later.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Stephen has the history of the PPC exactly correct. As to Ferris visiting web sites on closing meplats, I can tell you "it ain't so." How do I know? Long story short, I am the one who paid ALL of the R&D on the meplat closing die in 2002. The BT bullets are out of Ferris' die and indeed the meplats are closed very nicely. They shoot great from 100 to 1000 yards.
Ferris Pindell is a very special man -- with the energy of a teenager -- and there will never be another like him. I spoke to Ferris and June a couple of weeks ago, and they were looking forward to seeing their many friends at the Super Shoot.
Jim Hardy
Ferris Pindell is a very special man -- with the energy of a teenager -- and there will never be another like him. I spoke to Ferris and June a couple of weeks ago, and they were looking forward to seeing their many friends at the Super Shoot.
Jim Hardy
Jim
Thanks for settling the Ferris Pindell role in the PPC develpment. Jim I go back to 1972 in BR and the way I told it is the way I remember it. Thanks again Jim.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Thanks for settling the Ferris Pindell role in the PPC develpment. Jim I go back to 1972 in BR and the way I told it is the way I remember it. Thanks again Jim.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot the Berger 105's in a 6 PPC with a 24" MHV Hart 1-8 twist barrel. This combo stomped the daylights out of any 68g load that I had ever shot in a 6PPC at 200 yards in heavy winds.
Keith
Do you know anybody that have tried 105's in a 1-14 twist. Any results. I am getting my 6x47 Lapua this weekend with 1-8 Krieger and will start off with 68's. Will shoot some Berger 105's later. Hope to pick up another set of bullet dies so I don't have to change my Simonson dies I use for BR bullets. I can make 105's with the right jackets with a new set of dies
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Do you know anybody that have tried 105's in a 1-14 twist. Any results. I am getting my 6x47 Lapua this weekend with 1-8 Krieger and will start off with 68's. Will shoot some Berger 105's later. Hope to pick up another set of bullet dies so I don't have to change my Simonson dies I use for BR bullets. I can make 105's with the right jackets with a new set of dies
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Edwin
I will be fireforming with 68's. That's all I have right now that I want use. I have some Hornady 75 and 87's but I would rather save those for something else. I will be shooting 105's when I get some. I will be fire forming 100 Lapua cases.
But my question still is does anybody have any experience with 105's in a 1-14 twist 6 barrel.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
I will be fireforming with 68's. That's all I have right now that I want use. I have some Hornady 75 and 87's but I would rather save those for something else. I will be shooting 105's when I get some. I will be fire forming 100 Lapua cases.
But my question still is does anybody have any experience with 105's in a 1-14 twist 6 barrel.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Hi Steohen i fired a factory 6mmBR Norm cartrige out of my Rem700 rechambered to BR from 243 just to see. They have a 9.25" Twist and the projectile would not even hit a 4ft target at 50 yards it hit the ground sideways just under the targer into the tree behind the target. I dont think they would work in a 14 twist even at 4000fps.
I will tell you if it works though the projectiles loaded in the Norma ammo were berger 105gr LTB's
Cheers Bill
Australia
I will tell you if it works though the projectiles loaded in the Norma ammo were berger 105gr LTB's
Cheers Bill
Australia
Thanks Bill
Not concerned with the performance of the 68's in my 1-8. Though some of the guys I shoot with say they could work in 200-600 silhouette. I know they work in a 6x47 Rem at those distances. Interested to hear your results of 105's in a 1-14.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Not concerned with the performance of the 68's in my 1-8. Though some of the guys I shoot with say they could work in 200-600 silhouette. I know they work in a 6x47 Rem at those distances. Interested to hear your results of 105's in a 1-14.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Stephen:
The 1-14 twist will not come close to what you need with the 105's. I have seen the 1-14 shoot up to 80 grain FB Fowlers very well.
I have had a lot of experience with 9 twist barrels in 6mm chamberings based on large cases running the pill at about 3250 plus.
With a 6BR for example, I think you will find the 8-8.5 twist to work very well indeed with the 105-107 class bullets.
If you really want to have some fun at 600, try some 95-108 FB BIBS which are the quality of projectile you are accustomed to shooting in conventional BR. If you need a few samples, e-mail me off line and I will be glad to send you some for testing. There are a couple of other things I can do to the bullets for your testing which I think you will like.
Jim Hardy
The 1-14 twist will not come close to what you need with the 105's. I have seen the 1-14 shoot up to 80 grain FB Fowlers very well.
I have had a lot of experience with 9 twist barrels in 6mm chamberings based on large cases running the pill at about 3250 plus.
With a 6BR for example, I think you will find the 8-8.5 twist to work very well indeed with the 105-107 class bullets.
If you really want to have some fun at 600, try some 95-108 FB BIBS which are the quality of projectile you are accustomed to shooting in conventional BR. If you need a few samples, e-mail me off line and I will be glad to send you some for testing. There are a couple of other things I can do to the bullets for your testing which I think you will like.
Jim Hardy
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.