more on 6BR tight oversize cases

[lrgoodger]

The "Used brass hard to extract" thread is a timely one for me. I ran into a similar problem with my latest 6BR barrel. When I reload fire-formed cases the first time, I just neck size them. That has always worked fine, but this time when I went to seat the bullet with my Wilson seater, the case got stuck in the die. A little investigation revealed the head measured .4720 - .4725. I measured the heads on cases fired in my Savage LRPV and got .4705 - .4710. Those work in the Wilson seater just fine after being neck sized. I checked my reamer that was used on the custom barrel and found that it measured .4735. I returned it to the mfg. and he re-worked it so that it measured .4720 like it should have in the first place. As it turns out, there was a problem with the barrel too, so that is being replaced by the mfg as well. I will get back a new barrel that the fire-formed cases will not fit because of the new, tighter chamber.

Now, what I hear you all saying is that I cannot full length size these cases to fit into the new, tighter chamber. Is that correct? I have already fl sized all of them (with a Forster fls) and they fit fine in the Wilson seater now and they measure .4715. They fit in the Savage, but they are a bit tight (I'm wondering if it might be the shoulder being too far forward and not the head size). They may be a bit tight in the new custom chamber as well. I will find out when I get the new barrel back.

 

[bozo699]

The "Used brass hard to extract" thread is a timely one for me. I ran into a similar problem with my latest 6BR barrel. When I reload fire-formed cases the first time, I just neck size them. That has always worked fine, but this time when I went to seat the bullet with my Wilson seater, the case got stuck in the die. A little investigation revealed the head measured .4720 - .4725. I measured the heads on cases fired in my Savage LRPV and got .4705 - .4710. Those work in the Wilson seater just fine after being neck sized. I checked my reamer that was used on the custom barrel and found that it measured .4735. I returned it to the mfg. and he re-worked it so that it measured .4720 like it should have in the first place. As it turns out, there was a problem with the barrel too, so that is being replaced by the mfg as well. I will get back a new barrel that the fire-formed cases will not fit because of the new, tighter chamber.

Now, what I hear you all saying is that I cannot full length size these cases to fit into the new, tighter chamber. Is that correct? I have already fl sized all of them (with a Forster fls) and they fit fine in the Wilson seater now and they measure .4715. They fit in the Savage, but they are a bit tight (I'm wondering if it might be the shoulder being too far forward and not the head size). They may be a bit tight in the new custom chamber as well. I will find out when I get the new barrel back.

Bump the shoulder back for proper fit.
Wayne.

 

[NorCalMikie]

If you've full length resized the brass and the bolt is still stiff on closing, think about resetting the head space. Crank the barrel out about 1/8 turn and try again. May be too tight from the start and your "full length" die can't push the shoulder back far enough? Bumping the shoulder back "should" work under normal conditions. Been in that same situation. Start over again and work your way back up.

 

[lrgoodger]

I have always been under the impression that full length resizing would put a cartridge case back to its original size, including the head and shoulder location. I did some measuring last night and I don't think the problem is with the shoulder.

The virgin Lapua cases measure .4695 - .4700. After full length sizing with the Forster die they measure .4710 - .4715. It looks like a small base die may be in order.

I have the Pacific Tool reamer drawing for the blue box cases and it shows .4720 for head size. Does anyone know if this is the same as it was for the old cardboard box cases? I'm wondering if the die makers need to adjust the size on their fls dies to accomodate the new Lapua blue box sizes.

 

[AlNyhus]

The first thing to determine is how far you're setting the shoulder back when you f.l. resize.

How are you measuring that, now? -Al

 

[lrgoodger]

Well, apparently the Forster full length sizer is not getting the shoulder pushed back far enough. I have the Forster bushing bump neck sizer and I used it to push the shoulder back. It now fits fine in the Savage chamber. I was measuring by putting the case in the die and measuring overall length from end to end of the die/cartridge combo. The cases fired in the custom barrel were 4 to 5 thousandths longer than virgin cases or cases fired in the Savage. That tells me that there was too much headspace on the custom gun. I have instructed the barrel maker to watch headspace closely when they re-chamber the new barrel. It will be on a Remington clone action, so I cannot adjust it like I can with the Savage.

 

[bozo699]

Well, apparently the Forster full length sizer is not getting the shoulder pushed back far enough. I have the Forster bushing bump neck sizer and I used it to push the shoulder back. It now fits fine in the Savage chamber. I was measuring by putting the case in the die and measuring overall length from end to end of the die/cartridge combo. The cases fired in the custom barrel were 4 to 5 thousandths longer than virgin cases or cases fired in the Savage. That tells me that there was too much headspace on the custom gun. I have instructed the barrel maker to watch headspace closely when they re-chamber the new barrel. It will be on a Remington clone action, so I cannot adjust it like I can with the Savage.

Look lrgoodger, every gun's head space is going to be a little different, unless it's way out of spec why worry about it, you don't measure shoulder bump by measuring end to end, that's how I read what you were saying and it's wrong. You need to measure from base to shoulder, they have tools for that, there inexpensive and fit on your vernier calipers, Hornaday makes one and so does Sinclair, best of luck.
Wayne.

 

[lrgoodger]

Well, you worry about it because you have 300 once fired Lapua 6BR cases that are not going to fit in your new chamber.

Now that I've figured out how to get the brass sized back down, it won't be a problem, but like LR_Shooter, I'm not real happy that it's taking two operations to accomplish that. A simple full length sizing should have done the job.

 

[LR_Shooter]

good thing you just have to do it once, I hope after you small base size it, they shouldn't grow more then you chamber would allow, so SB die only be used for this and when you done pack it in grease for long storage...

 

[AlNyhus]

lrgoodger: Glad you found the issue.

However, you still need a way to absolutely know how far back you're pushing the shoulders when you f.l. size. Lacking this, you don't know if the shoulder dia. of the case and/or chamber is the hangup. You could be pushing the shoulders back far enough that you're reducing the shoulder dia. of the case enough to allow it to chamber...thus ending up with 'way more shoulder bump than adviseable.

Here's a couple of pics of the Hornady tool. If you look closely, you can see that the shoulder is back .002 on a sized case. This tool (or one like it) should be the first tool any serious handloader buys, IMO.

 

[lrgoodger]

I measured the same way you did except I used the bushing bump die instead of the tool clamped to your caliper. The case shoulder seats against my die in the same manner it seats against your tool, allowing a comparison measurement. An absolute measurement is un-necessary since delta L (lenth) is what we are interested in. Like you say, the delta L in your photos is .002. The delta L in my measurements was .004 - .005 over a virgin case length. When I bumped the shoulder back with the die, it measured almost exactly what the virgin case measured. Problem solved. The only question I am left hanging with is; why didn't the full length sizer get the shoulder back where it should have been?

 

[bozo699]

I measured the same way you did except I used the bushing bump die instead of the tool clamped to your caliper. The case shoulder seats against my die in the same manner it seats against your tool, allowing a comparison measurement. An absolute measurement is un-necessary since delta L (lenth) is what we are interested in. Like you say, the delta L in your photos is .002. The delta L in my measurements was .004 - .005 over a virgin case length. When I bumped the shoulder back with the die, it measured almost exactly what the virgin case measured. Problem solved. The only question I am left hanging with is; why didn't the full length sizer get the shoulder back where it should have been?

lrgoodger,
That of course wouldn't work with a standard f/l sizing die but it would with a Forster n/k bushing bump die and it was very insightful of you thinking of it, just remove the bushing and instant indicator
I am not sure I would have ever thought of that. I would guess your problem not pushing the shoulder back far enough is you need to remove some material off the bottom of the die or a few thou. off the shell holder, then keep that shell holder with that die, I have had to do this before myself.
Wayne.

 

[lrgoodger]

I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm a veteran engineer with many a solved problem under my belt, so I can usually figure out a way to accomplish what I need to do. The Forster full lenght sizer belonged to a friend of mine. I have not bought one yet because I figured the bushing bump die would get me by for a few firings before I needed to fls. Now I'm wondering if there might not be a better choice than the Forster. It did get the head size back down enough so that I didn't need a small base die, but it's not doing the job on getting the shoulder pushed back.

Does anyone know of a 6BR full length sizer that will accomplish both without modifying the die?

 

[abishai]

Was this brass fired in a different barrel before? I have had the same problem with trying to use my old brass with my new barrel. If this is the case (no punn intended) try fire forming new brass and then neck size.

 

[lrgoodger]

Was this brass fired in a different barrel before? I have had the same problem with trying to use my old brass with my new barrel. If this is the case (no punn intended) try fire forming new brass and then neck size.

If you read the entire thread, you will see that is pretty much what happened. The barrel they were fired in was returned to the maker and will be replaced with a new barrel with a tighter chamber. What would you suggest I do with the 300 once fired Lapua cases? As a retiree on a fixed income, I don't have money running out my ears like some posters here do.

It's a moot point anyway, since I have solved the resizing problem for now, but they will need resized again after a few firings. I will eventually need a full length sizer.

 

[abishai]

well loosing 300 rounds of brass is no fun at all. In my limited experience, some times used brass can be full lengthed then run a standard neck die for the durration. This (purely conjecture) i believe is because the new chamber is larger than the old one. Other way around things get tight. If you full lenght every time the used stuff will work fine. Best of luck, if you need 10 free new ones pm me with your info.

 

[AlNyhus]

Does anyone know of a 6BR full length sizer that will accomplish both without modifying the die?

Honestly, the best bet would be to send several fired cases (from the chamber you're working with) to Harrel's. They will send you a f.l. bushing die that works with your chamber for around $80. 8) Then you can simply resize the 300 pcs. in this die and be good to go. Full length sizing every time (with a well fitted die) is a great way to go. In years past, this wasn't the case...but things progress and change.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[bozo699]

Does anyone know of a 6BR full length sizer that will accomplish both without modifying the die?

Honestly, the best bet would be to send several fired cases (from the chamber you're working with) to Harrell's. They will send you a f.l. bushing die that works with your chamber for around $80. 8) Then you can simply re size the 300 pcs. in this die and be good to go. Full length sizing every time (with a well fitted die) is a great way to go. In years past, this wasn't the case...but things progress and change.

Good shootin'. -Al

lrgoodger,
Were all just trying to help, being a retired engineer I am sure money isn't a problem but no one no matter how much they have in the bank wants to throw $300 away, even more than the $300 is the 2 days of prep work lost on the brass to get it match ready. With all that being said unless the brass has been loaded hot and has over pressure signs there is nothing wrong with it, ALL brass should be F/L sized EVERY TIME! or body sized then necked sized as consistency is key to accuracy IMO. For years I neck sized only until brass was hard to chamber, when I started body sizing then partial neck sizing my groups and score improved and with the tight chambers I run I haven't noticed much if any reduction in brass life, I don't own a Harrell's f/l die but I think it would be worth a try for sure as I have heard nothing but good things about them, best of luck to you.
Wayne.

 

[lrgoodger]

I have no doubt that a well fitted, custom die is the way to go, but you see, I absolutely HATE lubing cases. That is why I got a custom made 6BR collet neck sizer from Lee Precision. I partial neck size only and full length size only when the cases start getting tight. I have no accuracy problems doing things this way. Runout on the fired, neck turned cases goes to zero after a couple of firings.

There never would have been an issue with these 300 cases if I had not had a problem with the barrel and had to send it back. Getting my reamer modified for the new barrel meant I had to full length size all those cases and that's when I noticed the problem with the Forster full length sizer.

Everything is under control now and I appreciate everyone's input. My gun should be back with the new barrel on it in a day or so. The barrel maker has test fired the gun and told me today that it put four of five in the same hole in their tunnel and that he knew he had pulled the fifth one. Sounds like I'm finally going to have this gun shooting again after wrestling with it for 6 months.

 

[bozo699]

Well it looks like it's a wrap then, best of luck.
Wayne.