Modifying a Wilson Seater

[jelrod1]

I have had some sporatic issues with a .308 Wilson seater and asked some questions earlier in the year. I ended up getting a different stem (vld) to try and the issues are still there. Using Lapua brass twice fired and the shoulder bumped .001 with a body die I faced the bottom of the seater off to be flush. The thought was to have the case centering on the shoulder instead of having all that play from setting below. Mostly it works great, but there still are the occasional .003 runout cases that measured zero before seating.

The neck on the die measures .345 and my loaded rounds are .338. The chamber neck is .342. I am thinking of boring out the stem area down to the neck and putting a .338 or .339 bushing at the neck and then a couple bushings for the stem on top of it. Has anyone tried this yet? I will make one from scratch for the gun I'm building now since I'll have the reamer, but I don't have it for this gun.

The other thought is to buy a reamer with the neck size I want and make one from it, but the idea of a bushing that would let me experiment has me wanting to try it.

 

[GSPV]

You might try buying a Wilson 30 cal blank and cutting the "chamber" with your reamer.

 

[mikecr]

This die experiment is fun I'm sure, but there are other potentials that would negate improvement still.
I'll say up front, my Wilson seating only adds ~.0005 to TIR, and much of this merely follows extension of measure to seated ogives.

Assuming by now you have a good seater stem for your bullets, and that your seated depths are good, I then wonder if you're necks are turned?
Are you mandrel expanding necks before seating?
Do you turn the case in steps during seating?

 

[farmerjohn]

Hi Neighbor, get a set of Neil Jones dies andbe done with your problem. They have neck bushings in theseating and the sizing die. They are as good as it gets. Farmerjohn

 

[jelrod1]

This die experiment is fun I'm sure, but there are other potentials that would negate improvement still.
I'll say up front, my Wilson seating only adds ~.0005 to TIR, and much of this merely follows extension of measure to seated ogives.

Assuming by now you have a good seater stem for your bullets, and that your seated depths are good, I then wonder if you're necks are turned?
Are you mandrel expanding necks before seating?
Do you turn the case in steps during seating?

Seated depths are good. VLD stem fits better than the original but still not as good as it could. Bullets are Berger 175 OTM. They are not turned. Lapua brass, loaded round .338, chamber .342. Using a Lee collet die on the neck and a Redding body die for set back. Measured runount on the case after sizing near zero. I was using a Redding bushing die and runout was sporatic and this method has worked better. I use a K&M mandrel on new brass but rely on the LCD mandrel after. I do turn the case while seating and just when I think they are all going to be good I get a .002 or .003.

It could be the fact that the necks are not turned, but I really think it has something to do with the stem not fitting perfectly and causing the bullet to push against the clearance around the neck in the die.

Thanks for the lead on the Neil Jones Die farmerjohn. Never knew that critter existed.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are measuring zero case runout at the end of a sized case that has an unturned neck, the variation in neck thickness will show up on the inside of the neck, and the bullet will show that when you indicate runout on it. I Doubt that you will be able to hold the die and tooling straight enough to make the modifications that you propose so that things end up better than they are now. One thing to check is the chamfer on the inside of your case necks. Almost all tools leave a slight burr at the bottom of the chamfer. This might be causing seating inconsistencies. The K&M tool is really designed to remove this, but it must be set up correctly so that it barely cuts at all. ( I can remove them with the tip of a knife blade, but that would probably be too hard to teach using print only.) Do you have access to the reamer that was used to chamber the rifle? If you do, I believe that Wilson sells blank dies that can be chambered. I like the Jones FL dies but not his threaded seater. I have a friend that has both for a 6PPC and although he prizes FL die, the seater is not used, because he has others that work better. The bushing only touches the neck and shoulder. Nothing guides the body.

 

[jelrod1]

Thanks Boyd. As previously stated I don't have access to this reamer. Measured runout was measured on the ID not the OD with a test indicator attachment I made at the shop and are sized from the mandrel on the collet die. Most do end up with near nothing runout on the bullet after seating but those few that don't have me wanting to try other things.

 

[BoydAllen]

Sorry about the miss. Sometimes I skim too fast. Does your indicator setup allow you to look farther up the neck? Have you tried seating half way and then rotating the case 180 degrees and then finishing? Another old trick is to spin the seater cap and stem, just before you push down to seat. The idea is that this will turn the bullet so that it will center itself in the neck chamfer better before seating. Of course this probably only applies to flat base bullets.

 

[jelrod1]

Yes I can reach the whole neck. It's basically a Sinclair gage mounted on a plate and that plate has another block on it that holds the indicator. I can check ID and OD or either/or.

The root cause may in fact be prep related and that's why it's so sporadic. I think that the bullet is "cocking" and causing the neck to torque into the clearance in the die neck area. My thoughts are if the stem fit the bullet "perfect" that wouldn't happen or if the neck area of the die didn't have all that clearance it would be better.

I've always used VLD type chamfering tools. Maybe I should try a 45 degree to see what it does. I have tried indexing the die as I seat and still have similar results. Every once in a while there is still that bad apple.

 

[bozo699]

Yes I can reach the whole neck. It's basically a Sinclair gage mounted on a plate and that plate has another block on it that holds the indicator. I can check ID and OD or either/or.

The root cause may in fact be prep related and that's why it's so sporadic. I think that the bullet is "cocking" and causing the neck to torque into the clearance in the die neck area. My thoughts are if the stem fit the bullet "perfect" that wouldn't happen or if the neck area of the die didn't have all that clearance it would be better.

I've always used VLD type chamfering tools. Maybe I should try a 45 degree to see what it does. I have tried indexing the die as I seat and still have similar results. Every once in a while there is still that bad apple.

jelrod1,
You pretty much hit it! If you have a machinist and an optical comparator at your disposal, I do many do not but if you do run the desired bullet through the optical comparator and have your machinist grind your stem to match as close as possible, of course the way there built you can't get to the true ojive of the bullet and that is also part of the problem, also not all stems are even close to concentric, in fact there just plumb bent I have found on some of them, also the std. top is much more true to the die than most micro tops, hold the die up to the light and rotate top and you will see what I mean, which brings me to the next point, you need to reindex your top and die the same each time and it will work pretty good for you, if all things are fixed as well as can be and you seat the same every time it will be in your necks and there will be nothing you can do but turn them, even then some brass just is bad from the beginning, there isn't a lot you can do with a factory die but with a blank and your own ream there is more hope at least,...best of luck.
Wayne.

 

[jelrod1]

jelrod1,
If you have a machinist and an optical comparator at your disposal, I do many do not but if you do run the desired bullet through the optical comparator and have your machinist grind your stem to match as close as possible,
Wayne.

Thanks Wayne. Actually, I am the machinist and I have a coordinate measuring machine that I can use to measure the bullet to try what you are saying. Machining and contract inspection happen to be my business. Probably also why I'm so anal about this. I've thought about it too by making a larger diameter stem and making a hole in the die to fit it. Then I could have the stem "fit" the bullet all the way to the ogive instead of the little bit the stock one does. I'm probably going to do that for the 6br in process now and try it out making the whole die from my reamer and a stem like this. I'm just kind of stuck not having access to this gun's reamer and having to deal with what I have. I guess I could measure my case and have a reamer made to fit it the way I want. That's alot of money and time waiting on it to just try something though. I'm going to try some other things suggested in case prep in case that's the root cause and if there are still issues I'll modify this die further by trying bushings in the neck area and maybe at the same time try a larger stem.

 

[bozo699]

jelrod1,
If you have a machinist and an optical comparator at your disposal, I do many do not but if you do run the desired bullet through the optical comparator and have your machinist grind your stem to match as close as possible,
Wayne.

Thanks Wayne. Actually, I am the machinist and I have a coordinate measuring machine that I can use to measure the bullet to try what you are saying. Machining and contract inspection happen to be my business. Probably also why I'm so anal about this. I've thought about it too by making a larger diameter stem and making a hole in the die to fit it. Then I could have the stem "fit" the bullet all the way to the ogive instead of the little bit the stock one does. I'm probably going to do that for the 6br in process now and try it out making the whole die from my reamer and a stem like this. I'm just kind of stuck not having access to this gun's reamer and having to deal with what I have. I guess I could measure my case and have a reamer made to fit it the way I want. That's alot of money and time waiting on it to just try something though. I'm going to try some other things suggested in case prep in case that's the root cause and if there are still issues I'll modify this die further by trying bushings in the neck area and maybe at the same time try a larger stem.

jelrod1,
I am not a machinist , I am an electrician but I work for a large company that has a state of the art machine shop, somewhere between 40 and 60 machinists and tool and die men, my shooting partner and best friend is the shift leader in the machine shop and has done mt stems in this manner for me and it has made quite a bit of difference in the tir on my loaded rounds, I have also thought of making a die with a larger stem but felt it might cause problems else where but I am very interested in your project and would like you to either post or p.m me with your results, that would be very much appreciated fo sure.
Wayne.

p.s I believe your on the right track with your thoughts, since u have access to all this equipment then if you don't already know then check how outta whack the die to top fit is and top to stem fit, it is terrible in most cases and I am impressed on how well they actually do seat the bullets as well as they do.

 

[bozo699]

Also my friend Boyd Allen has made some suggestions, he has helped me on many occasions and is extremely intelligent when it comes to precision reloading and shooting, I would take anything he says into consideration. I have a friend that is a world record holder and top shooter, his name is Tom and he is a member here and for years has used Jones dies so I know they work, I am gonna call Boyd and discuss this type of die with him and see why he feels this way about them, I am sure we will both learn something, if not we will enjoy the visit.
Wayne.

 

[STS]

Gentlemen, If I could add a comment that might be helpful and potentially shed some light on your ideas. I have made seating stems that match the bullet ogive quite closely and doing so may not prove to be the panacea that the logical mind would think. I'm sure most, if not all of you, have stuck a bullet in the rifling while checking seating depth or pulled a bullet out of the neck because of insufficient neck tension at one time or another. With the very close fitting stem the very same thing tends to happen in the seating die. It won't pull the bullet but it does hang up and not want to come out of the die. I ended up making some dies with two part stems with a "ejection rod" similar to my bullet swaging dies in order to eject the bullet from the stem. They loaded nice straight ammo but were kind of a pain in butt to use.

 

[jelrod1]

Thanks STS. That is a good point and even better coming from experience. I have an idea to negate it and will keep you posted on what I try.

 

[GSPV]

If you are trying to match the profile of the bullet inside your stem, you could epoxy bed it. Easy to do.

 

[Martin52]

.... I'm sure most, if not all of you, have stuck a bullet in the rifling while checking seating depth or pulled a bullet out of the neck because of insufficient neck tension at one time or another. With the very close fitting stem the very same thing tends to happen in the seating die. It won't pull the bullet but it does hang up and not want to come out of the die.

I dip the seater stem in dry lube (graphite base) before starting, or, dip a thin paintbrush in the dry lube and apply via the base of the seater die without removing the stem and then having to re-set.

Martin

 

[jelrod1]

Just wanted to update on this. I tried spinning the mouths on scotchbrite and also seating a little and turning about 90deg and seating more until done on my last batch. They all measured very good with no unexpected oddballs. Not sure which one helped the most or if it was both, but it looks like that coupled with the modification to the die to make the base flush works. Thanks for all the suggestions.

ETA: I also spun the stem on the bullet before seating.

 

[bozo699]

Thanks for the updates and glad it's working better for you.
Wayne.

 

[LongRanger]

On my Wilson seaters the stems in the micro tops are not a snug fit in the die. When the set screw in the micro top is tightened, it cocks the stem sideways in the die and tries to force the bullet sideways into the neck. So I do not tighten the set screw....just align the bullet so its eye-ball vertical on the case mouth and let the stem self-align.

Until some company makes the perfect bullet I expect to find more BULLET irregularities the further out the meplat I measure. The amount can be ugly, but may not be significant if not at the ogive.


Frank B.