Misfiring primers.

[CatShooter]

I stopped using CCI primers many years ago, because of misfires and hang fires. I had problems with both BR-4s and BR-2s, and actually threw out a bunch in the trash.

Since then, I have used 9-1/2s and Wins.

I recently started using the BR primers again cuz my local dealer stocks them and Wins were in short supply. I bought a few brick of BR-2 benchrest primers.

A few weeks ago, I loaded up 50 rounds of 264 Winchester Magnum,new Winchester cases) and H-4350 powder.

First 50 rounds I got three short hang fire "Clickbang", and one long hangfire... "Click - - - - - - - Bang" :,

Now, H-4350 is not a hard powder to light!!

Yesterday, I was shooting the first batch of 6mm Remington loads. Also, new cases and H-4350.

The first 5 rounds gave me one complete misfire - the primer is very heavily dented.

Both powder and primers are fresh and kept dry, and I had no problems when using the Win primers up until now.

In both rifles, the firing pin springs are fresh and stronger than factory springs - they are 28 pound Wolff springs.

I am NOT a happy camper since I now have a bunch of these!!

Anyone having similar problems, or am I not pulling the trigger hard enough. :,


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[hayseed]

Hmmm. Not good. Do you think the virgin brass may have contributed in regard to headspace clearance? Did the hangfires or any of the other cases show any evidence of being knocked forward with pin fall? I wonder if they won't give more dependable ignition once fireformed. The tough hide might be enough to create a border line condition. Do you have a pic of the misfire primer?

 

[CatShooter]

Hmmm. Not good. Do you think the virgin brass may have contributed in regard to headspace clearance? Did the hangfires or any of the other cases show any evidence of being knocked forward with pin fall? I wonder if they won't give more dependable ignition once fireformed. The tough hide might be enough to create a border line condition. Do you have a pic of the misfire primer?

Well, here's what I know.

There was no problem with Win primers. There is no headspace issues with either rifle - new and fired cases measured - a few thou difference.

Plus, the primer in the 6mm that didn't fire at all has a dent in it the size of a bird nest.

Head space difference between new and fired cases in the 6mm is 0.000" to 0.002". It is a minimum chamber.

The 264 difference is ~0.007 +/- 0.002" to the shoulder,not the belt) all within spec.

I called CCI and "left a message"!

HA!

<edit, they haven't returned the call, so I send another e-mail with my phone number!!>

Double HA!!


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[Rustystud]

Cat Shooter:

I have had misfires with every brand of primers over the last 50 years of loading. CCI seems to be worse than others. As of late I have had 3 customers and several others at matches all complain of CCI misfires.

I would tend to think there have been some problems with the CCIs and it is not shooter/reloader related.

Rustystud

 

[CatShooter]

Cat Shooter:

I have had misfires with every brand of primers over the last 50 years of loading. CCI seems to be worse than others. As of late I have had 3 customers and several others at matches all complain of CCI misfires.

I would tend to think there have been some problems with the CCIs and it is not shooter/reloader related.

Rustystud

Rusty...

If you take CCI and Fed primers off the list, what's your take on primers, accuracy wise?


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[CatShooter]

Dm...

On this one, there is no headspace issues - if you put two pieces of scotch tape,0.002") on the 6mm case head, you can't close the bolt without leaning on it!

I just don't want to load up close to 2,000 rounds with questionable primers - I would rather dump them and wait for my dealer to get Win primers again.

I use CCI for 50BMG,there is nothing else!!), and I have never had a problem with them - but, of course, they are mil spec, so maybe they are made differently, or at a different place??

Arg!!


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[CatShooter]

Well... CCI finely called back.

They have lost a customer,except for the BMG primers).

He says that the primers are not seated deep enough - I use an RCBS bench priming machine,the old Lachmiller machine) - and I seat them hard...

He says that if the primer doesn't fire, then it should have a very light "strike"... Well,Duh) if the case has a working headspace of 0.002" and the pin protrusion is ~55 thou, then the primer dent is 53 thou - that's half of a tenth of an inch! That's DEEP!

OK, Dm... I know - I need to chill - naw... I need a drink, and I really need some Win primers.

Where do they find these phone guys, the homeless shelters?


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[cliffe]

hey Catshooter, maybe you should try shootin' some left-handed. LOL hope you can get some your problem solved. i've been using cci br2 for a long time and no problems. maybe just lucky that you got that bad batch made by that homeless guy and not me!
good luck, cliffe

 

[CatShooter]

Hey Cliffe.

I think I got it figured out - it's that damn 2 ounce trigger. Tooooooooooooooooo light!

If I go to a 5 pound trigger, maybe it'll get better!




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[Varminator]

Hey Cliffe.

I think I got it figured out - it's that damn 2 ounce trigger. Tooooooooooooooooo light!

If I go to a 5 pound trigger, maybe it'll get better!
__________________
CatShooter

,Here Kitty, kitty, kitty)

You know Catshooter,
Someone is going to start a thread now about light triggers being the problem with the CCIs. I've had misfires with CCIs but never a hang fire. That's spooky. I figuered I didn't get the tumbling media out or had something stuck in the hole that didn't burn when it happened to me. When it happens I yank the bullet pour out the powder and just put it away with the fired batch. Interestingly, I have over the years,started handloading seriously in about 1982) only had misfires from only CCI but on the same note I've used probably ten times as many CCIs as Federals and others put together. Also I can understand your frustration with the tech support guy. You do have to remember though that nine times out of ten when you seek information/support you will probably talk to someone FAR less knowledgable than yourself. This is especially true when it comes to cell phones.
Have you had the same problem with Federals?
Mark

 

[CatShooter]

Hey Cliffe.

I think I got it figured out - it's that damn 2 ounce trigger. Tooooooooooooooooo light!

If I go to a 5 pound trigger, maybe it'll get better!
__________________
CatShooter

,Here Kitty, kitty, kitty)

You know Catshooter,
Someone is going to start a thread now about light triggers being the problem with the CCIs. I've had misfires with CCIs but never a hang fire. That's spooky. I figuered I didn't get the tumbling media out or had something stuck in the hole that didn't burn when it happened to me. When it happens I yank the bullet pour out the powder and just put it away with the fired batch. Interestingly, I have over the years,started handloading seriously in about 1982) only had misfires from only CCI but on the same note I've used probably ten times as many CCIs as Federals and others put together. Also I can understand your frustration with the tech support guy. You do have to remember though that nine times out of ten when you seek information/support you will probably talk to someone FAR less knowledgable than yourself. This is especially true when it comes to cell phones.
Have you had the same problem with Federals?
Mark

Mark... it's definitely those damn 2 oz triggers.

I haven't ever had any ignition problems with Feds - and I have shot tons of them, but I don't like that paint they put on the primers.

I have had three primers in my life that didn't have a pellet in them.

SO when I put them in the little green tray and shakie them up side up - I like to quickly check them for pellets - I know it's dumb, but by now, it's just a habit,aka superstition !!).

I have never had problems with either Rem or Win, so I will be going back to one of those.

Probably Win.

My best friend is the head chemist at an explosives company, and we discussed primers a while back - something he passed along to me was this.

He said that Sodium Azide,the main ingredient in primers) forms in three different types of crystals, and each is called a called a "phase". There is a phase one, a phase two, and a phase three...
...Seems that Winchester has the best phase locked up cuz they first had a patent on the phase, and now have patents on the processes to make it.

So the other guys get "hind tit" so to speak.

That's the skinny as he tells it - and his company makes one of the phases,but he won't tell me who they make it for, but it ain't Winchester).


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[rstreich]

There was a thread a few months ago on BR Central where a guy was having problems with Remington primers,I think). The only reason I mention it is that he was using the same tool for priming that you are.

CCIs have been my primer of choice for a few years now and the only time I had a problem with them was when I was using my Forster primer seater and had the shellholder slightly misaligned so the punch was hitting the case head and not seating the primers all the way into the pocket. On the misfired primers, I had what appeared to be a solid primer strike.

I'm not familiar with your tool, but is it possible something like this could have happened? Just a thought.

 

[CatShooter]

There was a thread a few months ago on BR Central where a guy was having problems with Remington primers,I think). The only reason I mention it is that he was using the same tool for priming that you are.

CCIs have been my primer of choice for a few years now and the only time I had a problem with them was when I was using my Forster primer seater and had the shellholder slightly misaligned so the punch was hitting the case head and not seating the primers all the way into the pocket. On the misfired primers, I had what appeared to be a solid primer strike.

I'm not familiar with your tool, but is it possible something like this could have happened? Just a thought.

Thanks - I went over there and used the search engine, but couldn't find anything.


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[Charliemac]

Hi Catshooter, I'm kinda new to this forum. I too have a recent problem with BR2 primers, failure to fire. I had 8 shells fail to fire at my clubs prone match. I called CCI and the guy told me the same story not deep enough head space issues and uniformed pockets being the problem. He told me the primer has to be 0.003-0.005 below the case head. So I went back and measured the primer's depth on some previously prep'd cases and got 0.003-0.005. Then I re-seated them and and they measured 0.005-0.007. I did this to 2 boxes of 20 in my 308 Palma loads one with Rem 9 1/2 & BR2 with the same Win brass w/ uniformed pockets. I shot them yesterday and had one failure with the BR2s and none with 9 1/2. Earlier I sent my Barnard barreled action back to Mac Tilton to verify the head space and firing pin protrusion. The head space was minimum/ zero and pin protrusion was 0.063. I think there is something wrong with the primers. My lot number is K26N, new stuff. CCI said these are new and there hasn't any reports of problems. I'm going to call them again tomorrow and complain. I can't have these failures during a match. Especially when cost that much. Charlie Mac

 

[CatShooter]

Hi Catshooter, I'm kinda new to this forum. I too have a recent problem with BR2 primers, failure to fire. I had 8 shells fail to fire at my clubs prone match. I called CCI and the guy told me the same story not deep enough head space issues and uniformed pockets being the problem. He told me the primer has to be 0.003-0.005 below the case head. So I went back and measured the primer's depth on some previously prep'd cases and got 0.003-0.005. Then I re-seated them and and they measured 0.005-0.007. I did this to 2 boxes of 20 in my 308 Palma loads one with Rem 9 1/2 & BR2 with the same Win brass w/ uniformed pockets. I shot them yesterday and had one failure with the BR2s and none with 9 1/2. Earlier I sent my Barnard barreled action back to Mac Tilton to verify the head space and firing pin protrusion. The head space was minimum/ zero and pin protrusion was 0.063. I think there is something wrong with the primers. My lot number is K26N, new stuff. CCI said these are new and there hasn't any reports of problems. I'm going to call them again tomorrow and complain. I can't have these failures during a match. Especially when cost that much. Charlie Mac

Thanks Charlie - looks like we got the same guy on the phone.

I'm just gonna ginve up on them -the guy at CCI isn't any help - all he says id the 5 to 7 thou below... and even though I have seated them right, he doesn't hear a word I say.


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[CatShooter]

Catshooter
The industry specification for small rifle primers is 0.1730 to 0.1745 in diameter and 0.117 to 0.123 in depth
For large rifles it is 0.2085 to 0.210 in diameter and 0.125 to 0.132 in depth.
I received these specs from Neill Guy or Guy Neill at CCI at CCI after I had 3 rounds fail to ignite.My primer pockets and flashholes are both uniformed using Sinclair tools.
If you noticed they give a generous amount of depth variation in the specs posted above.
I am still shooting them as single digit extreme spreads or hard to beat.
Lynn

Good morning Lynn

I think the industry holds their tolerances closer than the standards allow. If primers varied 7 thou, it would be very obvious to the touch

My pockets were not reamed,it's not on my list of things to do), though I have been known to do a flash hole from time to time.

Over the years, I have not found seating depth to be a problem in cases of different makes,Win, Lapua, Rem), so I was surprised that he blamed seating on all of it.

I think they have a problem - not a crises, but some lack of something, and they want to blame in on seating depth.


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[Rustystud]

Cat Shooter:

Believe it or not I have has the least trouble out of Winchester primers. I have loaded comercially millionws of them. The most accurate have been Federals .205m, 210m, and 215m.

Russian Primers are not consistent in their depth.

CCIs have been accurate but you can count on about 1 or 2 out of 5000 not going off.

Since I began keeping my primers in a warming,dehumidifing) bread box I have little to no misfires.

Rusytstud

 

[jb77]

Catshooter only sissies use 2oz triggers. Us real men wouldn't dream of having trigger pulls less than 11 or 12 pounds hahaha!

I just completed a insulated cabinet just for my primers. I am trying to follow the manufacturers edict of keeping them in a cool dry space. I certainly don't know why though, I have unloaded ammunition out of shipping containers and the air inside was neither cool nor dry and had not been so for many months. Something to think about.

I am trying to get my local dealer to carry the Wolf primers. I have been buying CCI BR2's & 4's always in lots of at least 1 thou. No problems, but I do not like the fact that their customer support is lacking. It's one thing when someone listens and and offers a possible solution. Its another thing altogether when the guy just wants to get you off the phone. Sounds to me like he is making an assumption that you can't properly seat your primers.

Good luck.

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter
I worded my last post wrong.Those numbers are for the primer pockets not the primer cups.
In talking with CCI Technical they are sayin we are not getting enough crush on the primer to properlyly arm it.

With the 50 bmg primers you mentioned earlier most priming tools come with a rounded seater and a flat seater.CCI recommends the flat seater even though the primers come with a rounded top.
Lynn

Lynn - I assumed that it was for the pockets - and my comment meant that you would feel the difference when you primed Lap, Win, or Rem with the same primers.

If they are not getting enough crush with a 28# spring and <0.002" of working headspace, then I don't know???

What troubled me most was this guys attitude - it's like he didn't underestand the question or what I was talking about, and he was reading from a F.A.Q. sheet, and couldn't get to the next line. :, :,

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[billmo]

Catshooter, he was probably an illegal alien since most of our work force is made up of them now. Bill