Mis-take Mis-take
- Thread starter ArtinNC
- Start date
ArtinNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Wouldn't that get beat-up pretty fast the edge is pretty thin with the firing pin hammering it all the time ?
ArtinNC
Gold $$ Contributor
They only thing Bad is the extractor cuts in the barrel and I can do that . And nothing so hard about the rest of it .
ggshoots
Gold $$ Contributor
A few thoughts on this topic.
1. Many rimfire strikers are tuned to not impact the rim. Dry firing ok.
2. Some chambers are cut with a recessed rim and some are flat.
3. A lot of bulk ammo varies greatly so you cant get to finicky on headspace and cut the chamber to shallow or you will be limited on what you can run for ammo. Tighter the chamber, it gets fired or you will be driving it out. I personally like to set my rifles at .041" for general playing and very good shooting Squirrel rifles.
4. I believe some very good shooting rifle barrels are made with a stress free fit and using bearing adhesive.
I was taught this by a very good rimfire builder and I have built many rifles this way, never a problem. Switch barrel rifles not included.
There is definitely more with much of it way above my head but you really have to identify the end use. Are you talking a hunting, plinking, fun match rifle or a serious competition rifle. If the latter there are so many things involved and relatively few great rimfire gunsmiths for a reason. It takes a lot of time to learn rimfire smithing but I am sure that a number of people on this thread would be excellent at it if they had the time to commit to it. My first barrel was a Shilin Select Match done by a very good CF and shotgun smith. I cut the tenon off and did it myself it was so sloppy. Learned a lot since then. Unless the smith is exposed to competition shooting and RF especially I believe they go by the Good Enough rule, its just a rimfire.. Lol
1. Many rimfire strikers are tuned to not impact the rim. Dry firing ok.
2. Some chambers are cut with a recessed rim and some are flat.
3. A lot of bulk ammo varies greatly so you cant get to finicky on headspace and cut the chamber to shallow or you will be limited on what you can run for ammo. Tighter the chamber, it gets fired or you will be driving it out. I personally like to set my rifles at .041" for general playing and very good shooting Squirrel rifles.
4. I believe some very good shooting rifle barrels are made with a stress free fit and using bearing adhesive.
I was taught this by a very good rimfire builder and I have built many rifles this way, never a problem. Switch barrel rifles not included.
There is definitely more with much of it way above my head but you really have to identify the end use. Are you talking a hunting, plinking, fun match rifle or a serious competition rifle. If the latter there are so many things involved and relatively few great rimfire gunsmiths for a reason. It takes a lot of time to learn rimfire smithing but I am sure that a number of people on this thread would be excellent at it if they had the time to commit to it. My first barrel was a Shilin Select Match done by a very good CF and shotgun smith. I cut the tenon off and did it myself it was so sloppy. Learned a lot since then. Unless the smith is exposed to competition shooting and RF especially I believe they go by the Good Enough rule, its just a rimfire.. Lol
ArtinNC
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm going with your " fun match rifle " A gun that is not is not a accurate gun is NOT a fun gun to me . . And I will never shoot competition again . And a good enough is NOT good enough .
And this is a Shilin Select Match barrel That has been standing in the corner on my bench for 10 years And yes it still looks brand new I have a bore scope .
I would not use bearing adhesive to fill a .012 gap ?
Last edited:
ggshoots
Gold $$ Contributor
No, to big of a gap. I did build one rifle for a friend using an Anshutz take off. Since the Anschutz has a very slight taper it needed squared and then I bushed the tenon. Turned it down and extended the tenon then used bearing adhesive. Shot very well, not at a high competition level but very good to the point that the stock, trigger etc were the major factors to improve. Sometimes having to make things work teaches a person a lot.
luckyshot52
Silver $$ Contributor
Only one reamer is needed. The stick out ( amount of bullet engraving) is set by essentially short chambering to achieve the desired stick out. Conventional wisdom is this gives the best accuracy. Head space is set as we would typically do in a C F rifle. Because of most RF bolt designs it is pretty easy to add shims to see is less headspace increases accuracy. Most RFBR rifles are set up at .044-.043 to accommodate the most common target ammo. I haven’t found .22 RF chambering much different than CF. Extractor slots aren’t that hard to set up and do on the mill.
Now learning how to work the throat so reamer marks don’t take long term break in is another needed tool.
Now learning how to work the throat so reamer marks don’t take long term break in is another needed tool.
Random thought in engineering a rimfire's bolt head to provide
a "zero" head space clearance for "all" types and brands of ammo.
I propose a bolt head that is a spring loaded plunger design. Any
rim face would be in absolute contact with both barrel and bolt. I
do not have time to pursue this......I'll throw this in Jackie's lap if he's
not down at a boat yard......
a "zero" head space clearance for "all" types and brands of ammo.
I propose a bolt head that is a spring loaded plunger design. Any
rim face would be in absolute contact with both barrel and bolt. I
do not have time to pursue this......I'll throw this in Jackie's lap if he's
not down at a boat yard......
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Since Rim Fire Gunsmiths do shim the bolts to achieve the ‘ideal” headspace, perhaps using a flat wave spring would accomplish this.
It would have to perfect stiff enough to insure consistent bullet engraving in the lands.
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Which leads to a question. Are top Rim Fire Gunsmiths polishing the throat where the bullet engraves? In center fire, dure to the much higher pressures, the minor tool marks left by the reamer probably disappear pretty quick. But a Rimfire round has a miniscule amount of pressure, so any smoothing out due to heat and pressure erosion would probably be minuscule compared to a center fire.
A lot of stuff here in this thread but it can be boiled down into some very simple stuff.
First, all the debate on H.S. This is something that goes into and out of vogue to debate and it always ends up back at the same point. If your ignition is setup right, the rim thickness (H.S.) differences are not going to make any difference in the end. This is not "It goes bang every time" ignition setup but real and consistent ignition setup. If a person just cuts to the chase and sets up the H.S. to 0.0435"-0.0445" with a very slight edge break at the chamber entry of the breech face you will not have problems nor will you be suffering any accuracy issues if you do your part on ignition setup. The bolt nose recess should be somewhere between 0.033" - 0.038" to ensure that the bolt nose does not touch the breech face.
Next on the reamers, use of a straight wall reamer of diameter of 0.2250"-0.2265" is most common on BR stuff. There are tapered reamers and chamber designs out there that work but in the minority. The diameter should be selected based on the quality of ammo you want to fit in the chamber. If you want to be able to shoot about anything in it, go to the large side. If you want to only fit high quality ammo such as Lapua Midas / Center-x or Eley Tennex / Match, go to the lower side. Lube retained on the bullet once inserted into the chamber is a much more intelligent debate to have here on diameter. The debates over leade angle have lessened in the past few years but the main two choices are either 1.5 or 2 degree. Just pick one and go with it. I tend to favor 2 degree but it is not the end all be all. The reamer you purchase should be beltless or have no stop to depth. This allows you to cut the chamber to any depth you chose. Very common on BR stuff is to have 0.125"-0.145" of stick out with also a smaller following of people doing 0.060"-0.090". I prefer the more engraving in the first range but success is had both ways. Some factory type actions do not have enough closing cam to handle substantial stick out so they have terrible bolt closing if you try to run to much.
Lastly, the machining of a rimfire barrel is not some crazy hard operation as some want to make it out to be. Matter of fact it is pretty easy compared to other stuff. It just requires attention to detail and not as forgiving to not having great alignment and concentricity as jacketed high pressure stuff is. That little lead bullet gets deformed and stays there with not much pressure to expand it back out once it gets deformed. Slug the bore with care (I know this is vudoo to some centerfire people) and mark out where the blank needs to be cut on both ends. Keep everything straight and make clean cuts and all will be fine. The leade in almost every case needs to be cleaned up after cutting the chamber or you will be shooting a lot before it comes into its own if it ever does. Even with a great finishing of the leade after cutting it will still take some rounds to get it to the best it will be. I'd call it a brick or two to be broke in well but should shoot good from the start. Finishing the leade is probably the most difficult part because it needs something but it can be over done. If a person approaches it with patients and slugs through the leade as they go, they will be fine. You will feel the difference when you get there. You can also see the difference with a bore scope. You are just looking to do enough to change circular machine marks to now run length wise with the bore and no more if you reamed things cleanly.
The extractor slots are probably the next most difficult thing to do. There are many different ways to get there like most machining operations but it all starts with getting the barrel indexed correctly. Once that is achieved then take off into which ever slot pattern is needed. It is just keyway cutter or slitting saw operation at the correct index and depth. A person can get away from all of that by cutting a cone instead of slots but there are issues there. The number one issue most realize is that the chamber mouth can and likely will end up dinged over time. Ways around it but it ends up with compromises and more difficulty than just cutting slots.
My opinion for why in the rimfire world there has been rimfire guru smiths and such distain for getting centerfire smiths to do the work is that in the past, centerfire smiths just didn't take the work serious enough. They would think "This little rimfire doesn't need as much of my attention" and just were sloppier with their work than they normally treated their centerfire stuff. That lead to the rimfire vs centerfire smith debates and where we are now. I may be wrong on that and way off base but how it appears to me. Just do the same quality of work and attention to detail and it will likely turn out fine. At most just take into consideration the lead bullet and low pressure and what it wont allow a barrel to get away with and it will be fine.
This is mostly all coming from someone that looks at things from the BR mindset to begin with, then scales it back to necessity for what I have in front of me to work on. It ended up much longer than I intended for it to but it points out just how basic this really is.
Tad
First, all the debate on H.S. This is something that goes into and out of vogue to debate and it always ends up back at the same point. If your ignition is setup right, the rim thickness (H.S.) differences are not going to make any difference in the end. This is not "It goes bang every time" ignition setup but real and consistent ignition setup. If a person just cuts to the chase and sets up the H.S. to 0.0435"-0.0445" with a very slight edge break at the chamber entry of the breech face you will not have problems nor will you be suffering any accuracy issues if you do your part on ignition setup. The bolt nose recess should be somewhere between 0.033" - 0.038" to ensure that the bolt nose does not touch the breech face.
Next on the reamers, use of a straight wall reamer of diameter of 0.2250"-0.2265" is most common on BR stuff. There are tapered reamers and chamber designs out there that work but in the minority. The diameter should be selected based on the quality of ammo you want to fit in the chamber. If you want to be able to shoot about anything in it, go to the large side. If you want to only fit high quality ammo such as Lapua Midas / Center-x or Eley Tennex / Match, go to the lower side. Lube retained on the bullet once inserted into the chamber is a much more intelligent debate to have here on diameter. The debates over leade angle have lessened in the past few years but the main two choices are either 1.5 or 2 degree. Just pick one and go with it. I tend to favor 2 degree but it is not the end all be all. The reamer you purchase should be beltless or have no stop to depth. This allows you to cut the chamber to any depth you chose. Very common on BR stuff is to have 0.125"-0.145" of stick out with also a smaller following of people doing 0.060"-0.090". I prefer the more engraving in the first range but success is had both ways. Some factory type actions do not have enough closing cam to handle substantial stick out so they have terrible bolt closing if you try to run to much.
Lastly, the machining of a rimfire barrel is not some crazy hard operation as some want to make it out to be. Matter of fact it is pretty easy compared to other stuff. It just requires attention to detail and not as forgiving to not having great alignment and concentricity as jacketed high pressure stuff is. That little lead bullet gets deformed and stays there with not much pressure to expand it back out once it gets deformed. Slug the bore with care (I know this is vudoo to some centerfire people) and mark out where the blank needs to be cut on both ends. Keep everything straight and make clean cuts and all will be fine. The leade in almost every case needs to be cleaned up after cutting the chamber or you will be shooting a lot before it comes into its own if it ever does. Even with a great finishing of the leade after cutting it will still take some rounds to get it to the best it will be. I'd call it a brick or two to be broke in well but should shoot good from the start. Finishing the leade is probably the most difficult part because it needs something but it can be over done. If a person approaches it with patients and slugs through the leade as they go, they will be fine. You will feel the difference when you get there. You can also see the difference with a bore scope. You are just looking to do enough to change circular machine marks to now run length wise with the bore and no more if you reamed things cleanly.
The extractor slots are probably the next most difficult thing to do. There are many different ways to get there like most machining operations but it all starts with getting the barrel indexed correctly. Once that is achieved then take off into which ever slot pattern is needed. It is just keyway cutter or slitting saw operation at the correct index and depth. A person can get away from all of that by cutting a cone instead of slots but there are issues there. The number one issue most realize is that the chamber mouth can and likely will end up dinged over time. Ways around it but it ends up with compromises and more difficulty than just cutting slots.
My opinion for why in the rimfire world there has been rimfire guru smiths and such distain for getting centerfire smiths to do the work is that in the past, centerfire smiths just didn't take the work serious enough. They would think "This little rimfire doesn't need as much of my attention" and just were sloppier with their work than they normally treated their centerfire stuff. That lead to the rimfire vs centerfire smith debates and where we are now. I may be wrong on that and way off base but how it appears to me. Just do the same quality of work and attention to detail and it will likely turn out fine. At most just take into consideration the lead bullet and low pressure and what it wont allow a barrel to get away with and it will be fine.
This is mostly all coming from someone that looks at things from the BR mindset to begin with, then scales it back to necessity for what I have in front of me to work on. It ended up much longer than I intended for it to but it points out just how basic this really is.
Tad
I don't do a lot of rimfire work but have done a bit. I do consider it to be a little more challenging than centerfire work. I generally try for .043" and it works out OK. If the bolt recess is more than .040 deep, I will shorten the bolt nose. I like to be able to cut a recess in the breech of the barrel. .005" is great. Extractor cuts are a pain, especially those which are at any place other than 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.
I mostly use a 52D reamer but have also used a .2245 throater to chamber rimfires, with good results. One friend of mine likes to have .030" of jump in his chambers. He is a scheutzen rifle shooter. He also makes gain twist barrels and swears that a left hand twist works best for him. His rifles shoot very well, so I don't argue the point!
I like to cast a lead lap and lap the throat after chambering a rimfire barrel. This just to remove any feather edge left from reaming.
The action wrenches for rimfires are a bit of a pain too. It's difficult to put much torque on the action with an inside wrench and most don't lend themselves to outside wrench use.
I mostly use a 52D reamer but have also used a .2245 throater to chamber rimfires, with good results. One friend of mine likes to have .030" of jump in his chambers. He is a scheutzen rifle shooter. He also makes gain twist barrels and swears that a left hand twist works best for him. His rifles shoot very well, so I don't argue the point!
I like to cast a lead lap and lap the throat after chambering a rimfire barrel. This just to remove any feather edge left from reaming.
The action wrenches for rimfires are a bit of a pain too. It's difficult to put much torque on the action with an inside wrench and most don't lend themselves to outside wrench use.
10XSHOOTER
Gold $$ Contributor
Jackie, I feel for you. I've been trying to find a class somewhere that will teach Rimfire smithing,
I talked with the Gunsmith school at Trinidad. the instructor said he had done a couple rimfires but he wouldn't teach a class on it. The smiths that do rimfire are getting few and far in between. I'm in Colorado and would travel some distance for a class if somebody will put one on.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Most know that I look at everything from a Machinist’s viewpoint. That means attention to the details such as the initial barrel indicating and precise measuring of all critical areas.
However, the one intangible that I cannot measure is attention to the throat as described by Tad in his post. Ascertaining the correct finish and how far to go and then repeating it on another barrel is closer to an art than the other operations.
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