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Mid Node

I'm going to run 208 eldm's in my .308 for LR FTR. I can not get to the faster node so my question is, is mid node doable to achieve accuracy? I've ran Quickload with different powders and always come up quite a bit short of the faster node in my 30" barrel. I have access to a Uni-throater so I will throat to help achieve this, I already know I need to throat. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Don Dunlap
 
Charge nodes are approximately 3% apart, with the "scatter nodes" in between, which I do not trust to provide suitable results for competition.
 
Hey Charlie, are those 3% charge or 3% velocity?
Charge weight. But to elaborate more, this is not my discovery. Shooting last month with my friend Dan Newberry, developer of the OCW technique, he said this is the guideline they have found over many load workups. Afterwards I checked my results which have ranged from around 2.5-3.5% for repeating nodes.
 
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What velocity/pressure are you referring to as the "faster" node? Nodes are nodes, and the question can only be addressed with a proper frame of reference. For example, many F-TR shooters will run the 200.20X bullet with Varget or N150 in Palma (SRP) brass at around 2650 fps from a 30" barrel throated with something like 0.170" freebore (COAL ~3.110-ish). However, there are a few that choose to run them at a slightly faster node, anywhere from perhaps 2700 to 2720 fps. This node likely corresponds to the slow edge of OBT Node 4 for that specific barrel/bullet weight combination.

Likewise, I have worked up a load with the Berger 208 Hybrids over Varget in a rifle with 0.180" freebore (COAL ~3.120"). The final velocity tuned in at around 2590 fps. However, I know someone that was running the 208 Hybrids at something like 2620-2630+ fps from a comparable setup. Running the higher nodes with 200+ gr bullets usually means pressures predicted by QuickLoad in the 63K to 64K range, maybe even a tick higher, which is definitely over SAAMI MAX for the .308 Win. So loading to the faster nodes will generally be harder on brass, although Palma brass can readily withstand quite a bit more pressure than standard .308 Win brass. It may also be less forgiving with respect to gun handling. I have also loaded 215 Hybrids over Varget for the same rifle, which tuned in at ~2550 fps and worked quite well in my hands.

One consideration for you will obviously be freebore length, as you noted above. The Hornady bullets I have used generally had pretty long bearing surfaces relative to Berger bullets of the same weight class, which means higher pressure for a given velocity when loaded to a similar COAL. Loosely based on the above velocities I listed for the 208 Hybrids and 215 Hybrids over Varget from a 30" barrel, I'd expect you'd be looking for the 208 ELDMs to tune in somewhere in the 2550 to 2600 fps range from a 30" barrel. Running them at that velocity will result in pressures as predicted by QuickLoad somewhere in the 61K to 63K psi range, largely dependent on exactly how the rifle is throated.

So I'll come back to my original question; which node(s) are you referring to? If you're unwilling to run pressures predicted by QL to be very close to, or slightly above SAAMI MAX, then you would need to back the load off the the next slower node, which I would make a very unscientific guess might be around 60 to 80 fps slower. The 0.180 freebore of the rifle for which I loaded the 208s and 215s is certainly not "optimal" for those bullets. Nonetheless, the bullet boattail/bearing surface junctions were at or above the neck/shoulder in both cases, so they weren't seated grossly far down into the case necks. If you're planning on using Varget with the 208s, I would think about starting somewhere in the low 41.0 gr range, and working up to to around 42.5 gr, maybe even a tick higher. Obviously these are very crude recommendations based on incomplete information and should be checked carefully to make sure they're SAFE in your setup. However, I would make an educated guess that you would find a slower node somewhere in the low to middle region of that charge weight range, and another higher node toward the high end. You could then decide based on the targets, predicted pressures as you updated the QL files to match your actual velocities, and gun handling characteristics, which one you preferred.
 
What velocity/pressure are you referring to as the "faster" node? Nodes are nodes, and the question can only be addressed with a proper frame of reference. For example, many F-TR shooters will run the 200.20X bullet with Varget or N150 in Palma (SRP) brass at around 2650 fps from a 30" barrel throated with something like 0.170" freebore (COAL ~3.110-ish). However, there are a few that choose to run them at a slightly faster node, anywhere from perhaps 2700 to 2720 fps. This node likely corresponds to the slow edge of OBT Node 4 for that specific barrel/bullet weight combination.

Likewise, I have worked up a load with the Berger 208 Hybrids over Varget in a rifle with 0.180" freebore (COAL ~3.120"). The final velocity tuned in at around 2590 fps. However, I know someone that was running the 208 Hybrids at something like 2620-2630+ fps from a comparable setup. Running the higher nodes with 200+ gr bullets usually means pressures predicted by QuickLoad in the 63K to 64K range, maybe even a tick higher, which is definitely over SAAMI MAX for the .308 Win. So loading to the faster nodes will generally be harder on brass, although Palma brass can readily withstand quite a bit more pressure than standard .308 Win brass. It may also be less forgiving with respect to gun handling. I have also loaded 215 Hybrids over Varget for the same rifle, which tuned in at ~2550 fps and worked quite well in my hands.

One consideration for you will obviously be freebore length, as you noted above. The Hornady bullets I have used generally had pretty long bearing surfaces relative to Berger bullets of the same weight class, which means higher pressure for a given velocity when loaded to a similar COAL. Loosely based on the above velocities I listed for the 208 Hybrids and 215 Hybrids over Varget from a 30" barrel, I'd expect you'd be looking for the 208 ELDMs to tune in somewhere in the 2550 to 2600 fps range from a 30" barrel. Running them at that velocity will result in pressures as predicted by QuickLoad somewhere in the 61K to 63K psi range, largely dependent on exactly how the rifle is throated.

So I'll come back to my original question; which node(s) are you referring to? If you're unwilling to run pressures predicted by QL to be very close to, or slightly above SAAMI MAX, then you would need to back the load off the the next slower node, which I would make a very unscientific guess might be around 60 to 80 fps slower. The 0.180 freebore of the rifle for which I loaded the 208s and 215s is certainly not "optimal" for those bullets. Nonetheless, the bullet boattail/bearing surface junctions were at or above the neck/shoulder in both cases, so they weren't seated grossly far down into the case necks. If you're planning on using Varget with the 208s, I would think about starting somewhere in the low 41.0 gr range, and working up to to around 42.5 gr, maybe even a tick higher. Obviously these are very crude recommendations based on incomplete information and should be checked carefully to make sure they're SAFE in your setup. However, I would make an educated guess that you would find a slower node somewhere in the low to middle region of that charge weight range, and another higher node toward the high end. You could then decide based on the targets, predicted pressures as you updated the QL files to match your actual velocities, and gun handling characteristics, which one you preferred.

Thank you for the informative reply. 1.368ms 4th node, I don't mind at all running the pressures you have mentioned. I'm going to change the oal on Quickload and see what comes up. I don't shoot Varget, I shoot H4895 with my 185 Juggernaut. I have SW Precision also which I wanted to use.
 
Don - FWIW, I have run Jugs with H4895 and it worked very well for me, certainly just as well as Varget. I have also run the 200.20X bullet with H4895. Although the precision was also very good, I found the recoil impulse to be a little less pleasant as compared to Varget. It was more like a sharp "crack" as opposed to a more gentle "push". It's not that it was painful or anything like that, just a little less pleasant over the course of 70 rounds or so during a match. YMMV. Although I know a few people using H4895 quite successfully with 200s, I personally think it's a bit too fast of a powder for that bullet weight. I'd imagine the recoil effect would be even more pronounced using H4895 with a 208 gr bullet. I think Varget or N150 would be better choices for that bullet weight.
 
Your right about the crack with the 208 with the H4895, I noticed that right off the bat. Ned I really appreciate the information and as I evolve on this endeavor I will consider another powder down the road if needed. I was really wanting to try the Shooters World powder.
 
question concerning MID node ,isn't exact case capacity more important here that for a normal OBT load?? just asking...so i know if i need to do case weighing more with a MID load...and thank you
 

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