Medium sized yote boomer
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Ranger188
Silver $$ Contributor
This ^^^
Having had a couple 22 creeds.
You wouldn't see any real world difference in performance between the 2
A dead coyote is a dead coyote, give or take 200 fps + -
The 22 creed has more brass options and dies. No fire forming.
With a barrel burner, you don't need to shorten the barrel life anymore.
Having had a couple 22 creeds.
You wouldn't see any real world difference in performance between the 2
A dead coyote is a dead coyote, give or take 200 fps + -
The 22 creed has more brass options and dies. No fire forming.
With a barrel burner, you don't need to shorten the barrel life anymore.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
The decision between AI or CM case for me wasn't/isn't the challenge.
One you fire form the other you don't, one you hardly even trim, the other you do. Not much real difference after that ballistically unless you consider you can't get virgin Lapua without some magic right now.
TLDR: then what will be the twist to make the juice worth the squeeze?
The whole idea of the 22-250AI or 22 CM is more energy to send high BC bullets (longer, heavier) at higher MV, otherwise there are smaller more efficient cases to play with like the BR variants or the GT for example.
It becomes a twist rate dilemma in short order, so I would encourage the trade between AI or CM to get it out of the way because the real challenge is..., to make either one of these worth it you will either shoot the heavies with fast twist or slow the twist down for the lighter bullets.
In my own mind, I am torn because I want one twist that will do it all but there is no such thing on paper.
I won't highlight the debate on how fast you can throw any particular bullet with one of these two choices, you can all do that for yourselves or you can just look at typical data in the load manuals for 22-250AI or 22 CM.
I will just scratch out a little figure of merit math to share just to illustrate the real trade off problem with both of these cases.
A call to Hornady gave me a rough figure of 320000 RPM for their 88 ELD for example. So if I back into 320000 RPM as a high limit, that would be a MV limit in 7 twist of 3111 fps. For an 8 twist that same limit would be 3556 fps. I should mention there is a real issue of the stability factor (SG) to think about too.
A 90 grain at 7.7 twist drops the SG to near 1.0, and since I can't write well here is a table to make it easier.
When speeds go above 3100 fps, you start hitting hard choices in terms of twist rate-bullet selection.
Making brass in production there are real problems with steeper shoulder angles, otherwise you would see more of the AI designs in factory brass.
The ballistic differences between 22-250 AI and the 22 CM are insignificant, but the shoulder angles are the whole trade. To get the AI angle you fire form, it is that simple.
Now, the next real choice becomes one of sketchy RPM limit estimates for bullets and twist rates because both 22-250 AI and 22 CM can and do blow up bullets with regularity.
Going at the speeds to make either one worth the troubles is where you set the future of the gun in cement. The trade between AI and CM is easy, the selection of twist rate is agony if the desired weight range of the bullet is wide. If you limit the weight range of the bullets, this trade space is all easy.
Good Luck with your project. In for the report of which case you select and what twist and freebore you like.
One you fire form the other you don't, one you hardly even trim, the other you do. Not much real difference after that ballistically unless you consider you can't get virgin Lapua without some magic right now.
TLDR: then what will be the twist to make the juice worth the squeeze?
The whole idea of the 22-250AI or 22 CM is more energy to send high BC bullets (longer, heavier) at higher MV, otherwise there are smaller more efficient cases to play with like the BR variants or the GT for example.
It becomes a twist rate dilemma in short order, so I would encourage the trade between AI or CM to get it out of the way because the real challenge is..., to make either one of these worth it you will either shoot the heavies with fast twist or slow the twist down for the lighter bullets.
In my own mind, I am torn because I want one twist that will do it all but there is no such thing on paper.
I won't highlight the debate on how fast you can throw any particular bullet with one of these two choices, you can all do that for yourselves or you can just look at typical data in the load manuals for 22-250AI or 22 CM.
I will just scratch out a little figure of merit math to share just to illustrate the real trade off problem with both of these cases.
A call to Hornady gave me a rough figure of 320000 RPM for their 88 ELD for example. So if I back into 320000 RPM as a high limit, that would be a MV limit in 7 twist of 3111 fps. For an 8 twist that same limit would be 3556 fps. I should mention there is a real issue of the stability factor (SG) to think about too.
A 90 grain at 7.7 twist drops the SG to near 1.0, and since I can't write well here is a table to make it easier.
When speeds go above 3100 fps, you start hitting hard choices in terms of twist rate-bullet selection.
Making brass in production there are real problems with steeper shoulder angles, otherwise you would see more of the AI designs in factory brass.
The ballistic differences between 22-250 AI and the 22 CM are insignificant, but the shoulder angles are the whole trade. To get the AI angle you fire form, it is that simple.
Now, the next real choice becomes one of sketchy RPM limit estimates for bullets and twist rates because both 22-250 AI and 22 CM can and do blow up bullets with regularity.
Going at the speeds to make either one worth the troubles is where you set the future of the gun in cement. The trade between AI and CM is easy, the selection of twist rate is agony if the desired weight range of the bullet is wide. If you limit the weight range of the bullets, this trade space is all easy.
Good Luck with your project. In for the report of which case you select and what twist and freebore you like.
Ranger188
Silver $$ Contributor
Everything said by RegionRat is correct.
I won't tell anyone not to build a 22 creed. I learned a lot by doing one. (two)
But if you want to use heavier bullets you'll run into a major problem.
The .22 cal is small and to get a long 80g + bullet to stabilize you need
a fast twist, but then you run into the bullet possibly blowing up due to
the high RPM's need to stabilize it. A catch 22
A better option is to either use a lighter bullet and a slower twist ( it will still kill a coyote dead )
or just run them slower.
The more efficient 22 Dasher, 22 BRA, 22 GT would be an option also. Burns less powder.
Could always build a 6mm with lighter bullets and slow twist.
I won't tell anyone not to build a 22 creed. I learned a lot by doing one. (two)
But if you want to use heavier bullets you'll run into a major problem.
The .22 cal is small and to get a long 80g + bullet to stabilize you need
a fast twist, but then you run into the bullet possibly blowing up due to
the high RPM's need to stabilize it. A catch 22
A better option is to either use a lighter bullet and a slower twist ( it will still kill a coyote dead )
or just run them slower.
The more efficient 22 Dasher, 22 BRA, 22 GT would be an option also. Burns less powder.
Could always build a 6mm with lighter bullets and slow twist.
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
That or the 6 ARC shooting those 80gr ELD-VT bullets wouldn't be a bad idea, especially, if barrel life is of any concern but if a guy is looking for a hot rod 22 cal something like a 22 Creed shooting those new 62gr ELD-VT bullets would be like a laser death ray on coyotes.
The 95 grain Berger Classic Hunter @ 3,200+ FPS or, 108 grain, Elite Hunter @ 3,000 FPS from My, Braked, 10 Pound, 6 XC will, Reach Out, in the Idaho WIND and "Touch Them" with TWICE the Barrel Life of, the Fast twist, Heavy Bullet,
.22 Creed,. "idea",. Just My,.. 2 cents !
Range, "Dial" if, past 300 yds,.. Shoot ! ( the 6 XC is, My idea of, a Medium Bore,.. Yote, Killer ).
SINCE, I also Like to Shoot, Steel plates a LOT, the 6 XC's Barrel "Life" consideration, was My choice for,.. Both, uses.
.22 Creed,. "idea",. Just My,.. 2 cents !
Range, "Dial" if, past 300 yds,.. Shoot ! ( the 6 XC is, My idea of, a Medium Bore,.. Yote, Killer ).
SINCE, I also Like to Shoot, Steel plates a LOT, the 6 XC's Barrel "Life" consideration, was My choice for,.. Both, uses.
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22-250 standard offering would be my choice. Does everything you would want for a predator cartridge. In a 12" twist I would select the 60 Vmax.
Paper ballistics is just that paper - the standard 22 250 has a long-established history of performance; no need to go the AI route - just creates an unnecessary complication. Not a popular notion with the 'silver bullet' generation so take it with a grain of salt and some Tequilla.
Paper ballistics is just that paper - the standard 22 250 has a long-established history of performance; no need to go the AI route - just creates an unnecessary complication. Not a popular notion with the 'silver bullet' generation so take it with a grain of salt and some Tequilla.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Just for talking purposes, the whole point of pushing .224 cal 88 grain bullets is because they cost half of their typical counterparts in other brands or calibers.
A quick search on ammo seek today shows the 88 ELD is $0.24 and the Berger 95 is $0.50, the Berger 108 Hunter is $0.48 so the 6mm costs are double if you compare those offerings.
Barrel life certainly factors in, but even if we guess the 6mm bbl life is double.... and assume $800 for a bbl.
If you guess 2000 rounds of 22 CM that is $480 plus an $800 bbl is $1280
If you look at the 6mm at $0.50 per bullet, that 2000 rounds already costs $1000 and with the bbl you are looking at $1800 for the same shots, but there is still some bbl left. So that per bullet cost and the barrel life costs factored will be roughly like this.
Guessing the life of the 22CM at 2000 and the 6mm at 4000, the per shot costs are:
$0.64 per shot for 22 CM assuming $800 per bbl for 2000 round life and $0.24 per 88 ELD
$0.70 per shot for 6mm assuming $800 per bbl for 4000 round life and $0.50 per 95 Berger.
It is easy enough to play with math, but always hard to know the total bbl life. If your bbl costs less than $800 to replace, and you can be happy with 88 ELD and all that baggage... it is about economy per shot and bullet availability.
You know my typical answer... get both.... life is too short to worry about burning up bbls.
A quick search on ammo seek today shows the 88 ELD is $0.24 and the Berger 95 is $0.50, the Berger 108 Hunter is $0.48 so the 6mm costs are double if you compare those offerings.
Barrel life certainly factors in, but even if we guess the 6mm bbl life is double.... and assume $800 for a bbl.
If you guess 2000 rounds of 22 CM that is $480 plus an $800 bbl is $1280
If you look at the 6mm at $0.50 per bullet, that 2000 rounds already costs $1000 and with the bbl you are looking at $1800 for the same shots, but there is still some bbl left. So that per bullet cost and the barrel life costs factored will be roughly like this.
Guessing the life of the 22CM at 2000 and the 6mm at 4000, the per shot costs are:
$0.64 per shot for 22 CM assuming $800 per bbl for 2000 round life and $0.24 per 88 ELD
$0.70 per shot for 6mm assuming $800 per bbl for 4000 round life and $0.50 per 95 Berger.
It is easy enough to play with math, but always hard to know the total bbl life. If your bbl costs less than $800 to replace, and you can be happy with 88 ELD and all that baggage... it is about economy per shot and bullet availability.
You know my typical answer... get both.... life is too short to worry about burning up bbls.
I just Bought 500, of the 6 MM, 103 grain, ELD-X's, ( 2nd's ) for, less than, $30 per Hundred for,.. Yote's.
They are grouping, 5 shots into, 1/2 MOA, so they will be Fine, for Yotes to 600 - 700 ish yards.
The Berger's, get, 5 shot Group's, down into, the .2's and .3's But ARE, Spendy for, "Plinking", Steel !!
K-22 shoots Yotes Back East, But, in E. Oregon, N Nevada and Idaho, it's usually, MUCH Further, "Ranges",.. sometimes. I use 60 grainer's in my .22-250 Med Sporter 8 lb. Rifle also but, limit them, to 350- 400 yds.
Yup,. Everyone should,.. Own,.. BOTH !
They are grouping, 5 shots into, 1/2 MOA, so they will be Fine, for Yotes to 600 - 700 ish yards.
The Berger's, get, 5 shot Group's, down into, the .2's and .3's But ARE, Spendy for, "Plinking", Steel !!
K-22 shoots Yotes Back East, But, in E. Oregon, N Nevada and Idaho, it's usually, MUCH Further, "Ranges",.. sometimes. I use 60 grainer's in my .22-250 Med Sporter 8 lb. Rifle also but, limit them, to 350- 400 yds.
Yup,. Everyone should,.. Own,.. BOTH !
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B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Now you're talkin. I like the way you think, when in doubt, "get both" and if barrel life is a concern by getting both you'll shoot one half as much so two will last longer then one. Ha! When if comes to guns we can damn near talk ourselves in to anything....
@ B23,. True Dat ! When, I first Built my 6 XC, I started, a Fired Round,. Log ( It's around Here, in my Loading Room somewhere,.. LOL ).
Yup I too, Quit worrying about Round Counts, as I'll shoot them all, Until they WON'T Group,.. anymore !
I do Like, the 6 XC with the Heavies for, the Longer Ranges and Wind, out on, the Deserts / Mountains !
That 108 gr. Berger Elite,. IS,. Money !
Yup I too, Quit worrying about Round Counts, as I'll shoot them all, Until they WON'T Group,.. anymore !
I do Like, the 6 XC with the Heavies for, the Longer Ranges and Wind, out on, the Deserts / Mountains !
That 108 gr. Berger Elite,. IS,. Money !
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B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Haven't spent much time with Berger's 108's but I have with their 105 Hybrid and those things shoot amazing for me.
Gary in MD
Gold $$ Contributor
I don’t think you could go wrong with either one of your choices. I shoot ground hogs and foxes mostly with 22-250s and the Swifts.
If I was in your shoes I would go with the 22 CM due to quality brass already available with no fire forming necessary.
I would suggest the Sierra 77 TMK for a bullet that will expand well and has a respectable BC.
If I was in your shoes I would go with the 22 CM due to quality brass already available with no fire forming necessary.
I would suggest the Sierra 77 TMK for a bullet that will expand well and has a respectable BC.
I like the Swift. Tommy Mc
Im not sure if 22-250 is available again, but I didn't see brass for years. Through all the shortages creedmoor was available in one way or another weather brass or loaded ammo. Could always neck down in a pinch.... Plus you can get lapua, peterson, alpha, and starline. Seems like a no brainer. Many a classic is going to fade away due to lack of industry support it seems.
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