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Measuring at the ogive

I have the Hornady tools for measuring my reloaded cartridges at the ogive. No matter how meticulous I am in measuring, I see a variance of .001 to .003 after seating the bullet. I am using an RCBS competition carbide seating die. Is it possible that the variance is in the AMax bullet I am seating or could there be other issues?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Are you sorting bullets bbto?
No. I assume the manufacturer (Hornady) is consistent in their process. I guess that could be the issue if they vary the contour of the bullet. That's poor manufacturing tolerances. I hope they are better than that.
 
Are you sorting bullets bbto?
Also are you using proper seating stem ?
Bullets can and will varry from ogive to tip if stem is contracting tip you will get variance.
Seating stem has not been touched. It's an RCBS Competition die.
 
You will find, even on the BEST matchgrade bullets a variance of 1/2 to 1 thousandths above and below the "median". Excellent bullets like Bergers can vary as much a 2 thousandths above and below the median. Those variations will show up upon seating.. That is why, in a video some time ago, Brian Litz stated that if you sort bullets, sorting them base-to-ogive is the way to go..
 
Are you sorting bullets bbto?
Also are you using proper seating stem ?
Bullets can and will varry from ogive to tip if stem is contracting tip you will get variance.
I think I'm going to start doing the bbto measuring. I hadn't thought of that possibility. I just assumed that Hornady would have better manufacturing controls in place.

Thanks for the info.
 
I think I'm going to start doing the bbto measuring. I hadn't thought of that possibility. I just assumed that Hornady would have better manufacturing controls in place.

Thanks for the info.
I just went through a box of Berger 185vld
yesterday.
Bbto measurements .6930 to .7000 .
Now to your seating stem. If it's not a vld stem and your loading a vld, eld style bullet your probably making contact with the tip.
Due to the drawing process in making bullets you will have various lengths from ogive forward just as there are in base to ogive.
Sorting into lots will help in you variations in seating provided you have a seating stem that contacts the bullet at or near the ogive, not the tip.
All this really comes into play after doing OCW test or audette ladder and performing a seating depth test, because without a
proper/consistent cbot you wont have solid test or load.
 
Here is a suggestion. Feel free to opine. Seat all of your bullets longer than your desired ogive to head measurement by say .005 or more using a single seating die setting. Sort the loaded rounds by ogive to head and adjust your seater to produce the desired OTH measurement...for each group.
 
@TJV I should also note.
Sorting bbto into lots you'll have different groupings of bullets to load, but with proper seating stem the few thousands difference will be seated deeper into the case neck, but giving you the consistency your after at the ogive.
And yes if you have bullets with with longer bbto measurements seated consistent with bullets of shorter bbto measurements, the ones that are longer will have more pressure as they have taken up more case capacity with given powder charge.
 
@TJV I should also note.
Sorting bbto into lots you'll have different groupings of bullets to load, but with proper seating stem the few thousands difference will be seated deeper into the case neck, but giving you the consistency your after at the ogive.
And yes if you have bullets with with longer bbto measurements seated consistent with bullets of shorter bbto measurements, the ones that are longer will have more pressure as they have taken up more case capacity with given powder charge.
You have tested this? If you have, I would really like to see the data.
 
You have tested this? If you have, I would really like to see the data.
With instruments no.
Rounds on paper yes.
Conclusive results no.
It does stand to reason that a given volume with a given charge will have higher pressure with more bullet seated deeper in the case vs less intrusion of said volume from a shorter bullet.
Will it be enough for me or the OP to see on target? Probably not.
Will it effect es sd #'s? I'm thinking it's very possible.
If it wasn't plausible, then why do so many shooters weight sort bullets, primers, and cases? Not to mention sorting cases by "VOLUME "
Given the #'s from my last sort I have 6 each of .6930 & .7000 of the 185 vld's the outliers from both ends. I am willing to load and shoot these for arguments sake on my next trip to the range.
I do know .007 isn't alot of intrusion. But if it even affects group by .25" @ 100yds how much would it effect a group @600 or even 1000 yards for a bullet traveling @ 2740 fps?
 
Cartridge base-to-ogive (CBTO) variance of up to a few thousandths is not uncommon. As has been mentioned, bullet length variance is most often the cause. A significant portion of bullet length variance will reside in the nose region, presumably due to the manufacturing process used to produce jacketed bullets. Sorting bullets base-to-ogive (BTO) will not fix this issue because it is caused by length variance in the nose region. More specifically, it is caused by length variance between the caliper insert and seating die stem contact points, which lie outside the base-to-ogive measurement as shown in the cartoon below (critical distance, in green).

A tool such as Bob Green's comparator sorts bullets based on this specific dimension and facilitates more uniform seating depth without having to constantly tweak the seating die micrometer. Alternatively, the seating die micrometer can be set such that the bullets having the longest caliper insert-to-seating die stem contact measurement will be seated at the desired depth; those having a shorter distance between those two critical points will be seated slightly longer (CBTO). In other words, some of the loaded rounds will have the desired CBTO, all others will be slightly longer. Those can be set aside and given another stroke with the seating die after adjusting the micrometer by the appropriate amount. Of course, this approach requires more time/effort and also necessitates that each loaded round be measured.

The reloader will have to decide how much CBTO variance is acceptable and whether it is worth the extra effort. I test seating depth in .003" increments and try to keep the CBTO of all my loaded rounds for matches within .001". For someone that isn't loading for competition or that tests seating depth in .005" (or larger) increments, trying to hold loaded rounds to .001" CBTO variance may be unnecessary.

For loaded rounds where the bullets have length variance in the base-to-ogive dimension (i.e. have not been sorted BTO) that have loaded with very uniform seating depth (CBTO), by definition there will be variance in the length of bullet shank in the neck and the effective case volume. This is solely due to the bullet BTO length variance and can be improved by sorting bullets BTO. However, in my hands, changing the seating depth for jumped (not jammed) bullets during seating depth testing by as much as .010" to .015" in either direction does not cause a statistically significant change in measured average muzzle velocities, even though the effective internal case volume (and therefore pressure) is clearly altered by the different amount of bullet shank in the neck. In other words, my average velocities during seating depth testing over perhaps a .024" total seating depth range do not vary by more than the individual SDs. In contrast, changing seating depth by .025" to .030" (or more) may be enough cause detectable velocity variance. Clearly small differences in seating depth, or by analogy, bullet shank length (i.e. less than .010" to .015") are not usually sufficient to cause significant case volume/pressure/velocity changes. Again, the reloader will have to decide for themselves whether BTO sorting is worth the time and effort. It should be noted that the length of bullet shank in the neck can also affect neck friction and release of the bullet, in addition to the typically minor effects on case volume/pressure/velocity. It may be that the friction and bullet release are a more important reason to sort bullets BTO than the relatively minor changes in case volume/pressure/velocity caused by a few thousandths BTO variance.


Bullet Dimensions.jpg
 
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I have the Hornady tools for measuring my reloaded cartridges at the ogive. No matter how meticulous I am in measuring, I see a variance of .001 to .003 after seating the bullet. I am using an RCBS competition carbide seating die. Is it possible that the variance is in the AMax bullet I am seating or could there be other issues?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Another reason your o.a.l. may vary is the seating force may be different from case to case. The seating stem angle may not match the contact point of the bullet perfectly allowing it to dig into the bullet when seating. This will give you slightly different lengths if the seating force varies. I have lapped the seating stem to the bullet using a drill press and lapping compound to match the angles better. I also run very little neck tension which seems to help keep the lengths consistent. Just one more thing to check. Hope this helps. Good luck.
 
Another reason your o.a.l. may vary is the seating force may be different from case to case. The seating stem angle may not match the contact point of the bullet perfectly allowing it to dig into the bullet when seating. This will give you slightly different lengths if the seating force varies. I have lapped the seating stem to the bullet using a drill press and lapping compound to match the angles better. I also run very little neck tension which seems to help keep the lengths consistent. Just one more thing to check. Hope this helps. Good luck.

my experience with a-max is that the point where the seating stem contacts is noticeably more soft compared to other bullet options/choices ... case mouths over sized, too square/lack of chamfer can cause small deformations at the stem contact area of the bullet when starting the seating entry ...

might see if slightly deeper chamfer & dry lube help your numbers
 
This is where a micrometer seater is handy, as all get out. Also, the consistency of your measurements, with comparators on caliper, can make a .001-.002+ error, easily.

+1 on the caliper possibility. Check your measuring instruments. Quite surprising, the difference between a fine Japanese or German instrument compared to mainstream Chinese knock-offs can be substantial.
 
To the OP;

You don't mention the caliber or charge wt. so is it possible you are compressing the charge while seating? This will definitely effect CBTO variation. Also, as mentioned above, remove your seating stem and check the fit to your chosen bullet.

I have had to drill out a seating stem or two so a VLD bullet tip will not contact the stem. If you're going to load thousands of these bullets you might consider bedding the stem to the bullet like you bed an action to the stock. I also will select the best stem prior to starting a new bullet, and I've experience one stem that absolutely crushed the nose on a 308 ELD-M bullet.

I find neck tension variations to be a big factor in seating depth variability. You might try lubing the neck with dry lube.

In the end, what happens on the target is what matters. I've not found a bullet that needs to be +-.002" of optimal seating depth to be consistent. And I would very much like to read of a double blind experiment where small variations is seating depth contribute to POI scatter.

Psychologically speaking, I have always been a big advocate of the idea that anything we do to raise our confidence on the shooting line is a worthwhile venture, and probably outweighs small advances we make on the loading bench.

To the rest of the group:

Any takers on the double blind test?
 

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