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Measure barrel vibrations

CharlieNC

Gold $$ Contributor
Doing a little indoor research during the summer heat, I was wondering what would be involved to measure barrel vibrations and frequencies. Being out of date I was amazed to learn an open architecture Ardruino high speed board and I/o kit can be had for $30, and brand name micro accelerometer for about the same. Lot of freeware too. Turns out we have a local active user group who assist in projects as well. Its been 30yr since I did this kind of work and there would be much to learn to make this operational, but certainly cheap entertainment. Anybody have experience using this Arduino hardware? Other suggestions?
 
Turns out a 16yr old neighbor I take shooting sometimes has programmed this exact setup for use in radio controlled cars. He is excited to try this on a rifle barrel! Found a proper accelerometer via vendor chat, so the system should be feasible for < $75, then I need to make proper use of the data.
 
I use pcb piezoelectronics. To measure a barrel vibration you need to sample about 40,000 times/sec which an arduino wont come close to. Youll need a datalogger of some type and i use an icp sensor that runs at 10khz. Then you gotta have some kind of software to put all those points into some format you can interpret- most folks will use a .csv file and run into excel to view it
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I use pcb piezoelectronics. To measure a barrel vibration you need to sample about 40,000 times/sec which an arduino wont come close to. Youll need a datalogger of some type and i use an icp sensor that runs at 10khz. Then you gotta have some kind of software to put all those points into some format you can interpret- most folks will use a .csv file and run into excel to view it
Click to expand...

Stm32 F4-F7 boards used in flight controller for racing quadcopters have gyroscopes that can run a 32khz (imc 20602) and datalog, I believe betaflight is an open source firmware available on GitHub if you wanted to repurpose one of these boards, or just mount it up and record the "flight" with the currrent datalog software, you would probably have to remove all of the software filtering and low pass filters but it would be a cheap experiment maybe $30-40 for a board.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I use pcb piezoelectronics. To measure a barrel vibration you need to sample about 40,000 times/sec which an arduino wont come close to. Youll need a datalogger of some type and i use an icp sensor that runs at 10khz. Then you gotta have some kind of software to put all those points into some format you can interpret- most folks will use a .csv file and run into excel to view it
Click to expand...

Dusty do you find significant vibration at those high frequencies? I ask because looking at Varmint Al modeling info the major components seem to be < 1000hz.
 
Just because the sensor can do it is why. Its got a set frequency and i had no idea how much i needed and neither did pcb so like that time getting kicked out of the bar- i didnt know how many bouncers it would take but i knew how many they would use.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Just because the sensor can do it is why. Its got a set frequency and i had no idea how much i needed and neither did pcb so like that time getting kicked out of the bar- i didnt know how many bouncers it would take but i knew how many they would use.
Click to expand...

I'm looking at a x-y-z sensor to characterize all directions. Do you have experience with this, or are you just looking at vertical?
 
A quick read through Vaughn's work with early equipment might be insightful. I had the opportunity to do some testing like this. I would suggest you start slow. Capturing the axial acceleration with the firing pin during a dry fire event would be a good start.

The axial recoil will pollute the other two directions. Guaranteed that you will learn something. Have fun.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I use pcb piezoelectronics. To measure a barrel vibration you need to sample about 40,000 times/sec which an arduino wont come close to. Youll need a datalogger of some type and i use an icp sensor that runs at 10khz. Then you gotta have some kind of software to put all those points into some format you can interpret- most folks will use a .csv file and run into excel to view it
Click to expand...
I just started to say this. You'll need it to be significantly faster and to measure more than just the vertical. I agree...there is lots to be learned. Once we learn though, we'll very likely be very near where we already are in terms of how to make, tuners, for example, work for us. Technology is changing and becoming less expensive, though. Perhaps there is still something to be had from this. I strongly encourage this type of testing. It's how I learned about and put many pieces together in regard to tuners. Even still, we are chasing a moving target and there are tons of variables at play. Making it all add up to consistent numbers is the challenge. It's a very good comparative tool. I'm just glad to see others that are interested in the technical side of how barrels vibrate and how tuners affect this. If there's a better way, this is how we'll find it, imo. Tuners have always been a metric ton easier to use than to explain. Most everyone agrees that they do in fact work. There is and may always be some disagreement in how they actually work so well.
 
why

change one variable and it all changes.

your rifle/barrel will tell you what it likes. just watch the target.

shooting precision will never be reduced to some computer model. too many variables.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
I just started to say this. You'll need it to be significantly faster and to measure more than just the vertical. I agree...there is lots to be learned. Once we learn though, we'll very likely be very near where we already are in terms of how to make, tuners, for example, work for us. Technology is changing and becoming less expensive, though. Perhaps there is still something to be had from this. I strongly encourage this type of testing. It's how I learned about and put many pieces together in regard to tuners. Even still, we are chasing a moving target and there are tons of variables at play. Making it all add up to consistent numbers is the challenge. It's a very good comparative tool. I'm just glad to see others that are interested in the technical side of how barrels vibrate and how tuners affect this. If there's a better way, this is how we'll find it, imo. Tuners have always been a metric ton easier to use than to explain. Most everyone agrees that they do in fact work. There is and may always be some disagreement in how they actually work so well.
Click to expand...


As I read this response it soon became obvious who wrote it. You always amaze me Mike. Wish I could include a big smiley face! Hope all is going well.

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
As I read this response it soon became obvious who wrote it. You always amaze me Mike. Wish I could include a big smiley face! Hope all is going well.

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...
Thank you Gene! There's still plenty to learn about total gun vibration, IMHO. I think tuners are just the icing on a big cake. I'm not smart enough for lots of what is likely left to be found. I do believe that accuracy is broadly about managing vibration, though and am always interested in these threads, hoping to learn. There are people far more qualified than me. You for one.
 
Richard Coody said:
why

change one variable and it all changes.

your rifle/barrel will tell you what it likes. just watch the target.

shooting precision will never be reduced to some computer model. too many variables.
Click to expand...

It was pretty precise models that put men on the moon in a much more complex situation, even using slide rules to boot. All about the understanding to make things work better, too many theories with inadequate proof at this time. My working principles have always been 1. If you can't measure it, you can't fix it. 2. If you can write a reasonably predictive model, then you understand, and capture the technology to communicate and improve.
 
Youd be surprised at how much even a humidity change throws it off. You can tune a barrel with a tuner to its smallest movement, go have a sammich and try again and its like you never touched it. You can “stop” a muzzle but it wont stay. Itll go wild before it even shows you on the target its going out of tune
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
Thank you Gene! There's still plenty to learn about total gun vibration, IMHO. I think tuners are just the icing on a big cake. I'm not smart enough for lots of what is likely left to be found. I do believe that accuracy is broadly about managing vibration, though and am always interested in these threads, hoping to learn. There are people far more qualified than me. You for one.
Click to expand...


Just think how far we've come in the last couple of years. It's sure been a lot of fun and you are responsible for making me and others realize that we were making grossly too big of adjustments. Wow! What an eye opener to learn that tuner adjustments must be made in .001 increments not quarter turns and half turns like I was using.

Guys, if you don't know Mike Ezell, take the time to do so. He's the real deal!

Best regards to all and good shootin'!

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Just think how far we've come in the last couple of years. It's sure been a lot of fun and you are responsible for making me and others realize that we were making grossly too big of adjustments. Wow! What an eye opener to learn that tuner adjustments must be made in .001 increments not quarter turns and half turns like I was using.

Guys, if you don't know Mike Ezell, take the time to do so. He's the real deal!

Best regards to all and good shootin'!

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...
I don't deserve credit. I just saw something and went with it, Gene.
 
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